The 'infamous' named polyps

[dalston]

Well this started as a reply to another thread but concerned that it may seem like I am calling anybody out or bashing someone, I decided to start a whole new thread.

I have been reading these posts for a while now and been biting my lip, well I cant do it any more. I must admit that when I first started the hobby, I did buy into the names...I mean, zoas and palys were the reason I started keeping reefs, after reading Mucho's and others experiences and extensive knowledge, I took a step back and thought about it, realizing the bigger picture. There is NO other reason for these polyps being so high priced other than retailers glamourizing each and every one to make big bucks. I mean people are making a fortune from unknowing reefers in cold blood. Whether we like it or not, it's killing the hobby and all the people that are standing up and fighting are doing are trying to save reefers. Do you really want to have to pay $50+ per polyp? for the people that are ok with this, can you say that when you pay this you don't think 'as soon as this grows out, I can frag and sell for the same price'... this is called retailing and of course in my opinion, is not what reefing is about.

I am not trying to bash anyone nor am I trying to call anyone wrong, I am only sharing my experience in the subject in the hopes that people with the same feelings stand up and also share with us their view.

To the few that have effected my opinions, keep fighting, I am proof that you are making a difference.

David.

 

[IridescentLily]

Well, here's my experience.
I budget for stuff I wish to purchase. Hence I'm budgeting for a custom aquarium and some day will reward myself with one.
And part of the budgeting was for lawn animals inhabitants themselves.
Well, when the lawn animals cost as much as the tank and equipment...Um.

I have some named lawn animals in my "list" of lawn animals. I don't have them there because they're named. I have them in a list because I look the look of them, I like their colors and Ilike some colors more than most, and they happen to have a name. Plain and simple.
If a awesome color I like belongs to a higher priced lawn animals, so be it. If it belongs to a low cost lawn animals, so be it, better for me. But I will save cash for it if i really have to have it.

I'm a good example of someone who doesn't have many options for purchasing reef stuff locally. I have one or two lfs. Here, in the desert where I live. They have large 6" colonies of nice orange and green zoas for 30.00 dollars. And other large colonies of fluorescent green ones for about 30-40 dollars. And one colony of palys.
I hadn't ever been to this lfs before last week.
They didn't have names on the glass of the tank, just prices. I loved that. And I wondered if it was that way in other cities.
I don't have a tank or I would've bought the orange ones.
I can say that the lfs didn't have any other zoas there really. I don't know if that's because they ran out, or if it's because we are little city in the desert with no reef community.
They had the palys with the green mouths! So cute. All the zoas and palys were not lit with a blueish mh light, I would guess they had them under 10k lighting. But they had the palys with the green mouths for the same price, though the colony was a bit smaller. I would've bought that too. lol

But I run into those zoas and palys at other vendors on line for twice, three times, or more. Even though I have the money to buy things that cost 100.00 per polyp. I wouldn't purchase a polyp that cost that much. I just couldn't. I'd spend that on other things. But not on one lonely polyp. It may not make it, since there is only one. 100.00 for a colony? Okay, maaaybe. But 60.00-100.00 per one single polyp? It just doesnt' make sense to me. 70.00 per polyp of palythoa means that my budget for lawn gnomes was now into the high hundreds if not thousands of dollars.

I mean, that green mouth paly could've been the "un-paly". It could've been "the non lineaged, ugly seventh cousin of the Blane Perin purple eater" for all I knew. I didn't care what it's name was. Could've been called the "Jimmy Hoffa is alive and well in Las Vegas" and I would've cared less, even though it would've definitely given me a smile.
All I cared about was that it was cute and it seemed healthy, and it was in a colony of it's own.

Do most folks want to grow colonies of zoas? Or do more folks like having one polyp of a bright color?

 

[dalston]

Thanks for the reply! I think the whole fun of reefing is hunting down the wonderful corals we desire, does this mean I should pay well above what they are worth? absolutley not. Here is what I do - find out the delivery day's in your LFS and get there as they come in, there is one LFS somewhat close to me that never labels any of their zoa's or paly's, evrything sold is around 10 polyps and priced between $10 and $25...most of the colorful polyps I have were obtained at a reasonable price, its just about getting there first. Also I take a day out and drive a little further than I normally would, make a day of it, not only do I find some real gems I get some much needed 'away' time and see some sights along the way. I have found that most of the hobbiest's I have been generous with and given frags to have at some point returned the favor...to me, this is what makes reefing fun, not just sitting on the net thinking these prices are the be all and end all.
Just curious, what desert do you live in?

 

[Orochimaru]

This hobby is so commercialized, it's ridiculous. It doesn't seem like fellow hobbyists are growing and fragging to recover their cost anymore. More like greeds to me. I wonder how many reefer will remains on here if RC banned all selling? Of course it's a free country and no one is forcing anyone to buy anything.

 

[the808state]

every other coral in the reefing hobby has a name, why are zoas different?

808

 

[mystery_reef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14568158#post14568158 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by the808state
every other coral in the reefing hobby has a name, why are zoas different?

808

agreed

 

[dalston]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14568158#post14568158 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by the808state
every other coral in the reefing hobby has a name, why are zoas different?

808

808, thank you for the reply!

It's not so much the actual names that bothers me, its the fact that retailers seem to think that the names justify the sky high prices. It works both ways. Do people feel better about themselves spending hundreds of dollars on a single polyp with a name against a single polyp with no name? of course they do.

Why are zoa's different? I see the way that chalice, favia's and acan's are named and slapped with high price tags, does this make it right? I posted this is the zoanthid forum because they are what I collect and they are what concerns me, again this is just me. What makes these polyps so rare and expensive now compared to 5-6 years ago when they were reasonably priced?

 

[dalston]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14568023#post14568023 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Orochimaru
This hobby is so commercialized, it's ridiculous. It doesn't seem like fellow hobbyists are growing and fragging to recover their cost anymore. More like greeds to me. I wonder how many reefer will remains on here if RC banned all selling? Of course it's a free country and no one is forcing anyone to buy anything.

Hi Orochimaru! appreceate the input!

your right that no one is forcing anyone to buy but many new reefers are led to believe that this is the only way. I was one of those people and admit to buying a single polyp for $60. I wasn't forced to do it but thought it was just the norm. After taking in the info from people like Mucho, Geoxman and 650 (to name a few) I realized I had been got and looking further into it, i found a guy locally giving them away. Just goes to show retailers against reefers.

 

[the808state]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14568296#post14568296 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dalston
808, thank you for the reply!

It's not so much the actual names that bothers me, its the fact that retailers seem to think that the names justify the sky high prices. It works both ways. Do people feel better about themselves spending hundreds of dollars on a single polyp with a name against a single polyp with no name? of course they do.

Why are zoa's different? I see the way that chalice, favia's and acan's are named and slapped with high price tags, does this make it right? I posted this is the zoanthid forum because they are what I collect and they are what concerns me, again this is just me. What makes these polyps so rare and expensive now compared to 5-6 years ago when they were reasonably priced?

I see what your saying... I have a personal problem with the label "LE". "Rare" i can swallow. Limited addition!? come on! LOL

5-6 years ago a hardcore reefer wouldn't be caught dead with a zoa in their tank. Well, maybe that is a bit much... but you did not see zoas as they are seen today. Almost every reef site has a zoanthid section.

It's really nobody's fault but our for falling in love with zoas and palys. I'm sure chalices and favias were pretty cheap 5-6 years ago too.

 

[jadeguppy]

I say everyone put their money where their mouth is so to speak and trade, trade, trade! Hobbiests who trade don't have as many continuing cost to recoup, help prevent decimation of coral reefs, and sock it to the hype retailers.

 

[waynem]

It might be off topic, but talking to a wholesaler I know that exports out of indo. He was saying that in some way coral collection has become like the prawn trawlers. If you have seen them at work you would know of the dead by-catch dumped back over the side and that IMO is a tragic rape of the ocean.

So like the fisherman, coral guys look for big dollar items and just dumping the rest as they can make more money out of some coral. In this quest they destroy the rest of the reef hacking away to get the current trend items. So the must have / rare coral fad that is going on these days is in fact adding to the raped n destruction of the worlds reefs.

But hey they look good right so who cares.

right?

 

[goldmaniac]

in my opinion:

names are good for identification. Scientific names were invented to serve the same purpose; two hobbists know what each other is talking about when discussing a polyp that has been named, officially or unofficially.

Anyone can choose to buy or sell polyps at a reasonable price. personally, i like the $1 polyps. Nothing wrong, in my opinion, with Whammin Watermelons. Lovely, colorful polyps.

see? everyone knew what i meant by WW's, or they could easily look it up.

And i don't sweat bullets with the thought of an accident/disater wiping the tank if I have non "LE" or "premium" polyps in the tank.

for example:
I have a 5-year-old and a 2-year-old, and i live with the possibility of a copper penny getting dropped into the display tank or into the sump and sitting there for days without my knowledge.

If we want to kill these premium prices, we need to either offer the polyps for reasonable prices, or if the market is flooded, the prices will fall by way of supply/demand.

I think the real component in these "$40-$50 a polyp" prices is the buyers, not the sellers.

Maybe the economy will slow this down. After everyone gets and spends their tax returns, that is...

 

[dmorel]

HA, I just replied in the other thread too...

It is amazing to me how this argument happens over and over again and how fundamentally different the zoa world is from the SPS world. You would think in this hobby everyone would all be on the same page.

It is all about lineage.

"Named Corals" imply more than just a color pattern. They imply a coral that has exhibited specific traits in a captive environment that is repeatable given similar conditions. Captive SPS that are traded around ALWAYS relate back to the original source, are discussed in the generation of captive raised that they are etc.

"Back in the day" the zoa world used to be the same. Tub's blues were only tub's blues if you could trace them back to the original colony. Blaine's PPE's were the same.
But something happened where the zoa enthusiasts started buying lots of nice looking zoa's for very inflated prices after having been given fancy names. The lines got blurry and corals that had the same colorations as others started being sold as such, and people bought them. Perhaps presuming they were in fact the same coral, perhaps not.
This would not play in the SPS world, a tryee coral is a tyree coral and that's that.
I don't get why it's not the same in zoanthids, I really don't.

Now, the real question is why does this matter? What makes a "named" coral worth more? Hint: It's not the name! It's the fact that coral is now a known commodity That is where the value comes from. That is why captive corals cost more. Sure, there is some value that is derived from the mystique of the coral, the appearance otherwise it wouldn't matter that it was a known commodity but at the end of the day the thing that is most valuable is the guarantee of quality (plus the fact that it's not being harvested from the ocean anymore which is good for everyone).

 

[dalston]

goldmaniac,
Okay so names are good for identification, when did pictures go out of fashion? pictures do so much more for ID than a name ever could...again not saying I don't or havn't used names, I just think that for most people the names are used for the wrong reasons. With the people selling polyps for a profit, the names are a way to pimp their product.

dmorel, how are you sir? thanks for replying!

You said "but at the end of the day the thing that is most valuable is the guarantee of quality"

Can you guarantee the quality of a single polyp that has freshly fragged from another frag? it seems with the famed and desired polyps, as soon as a head has budded, its chopped up and sold. For $50+ per polyp is it worth the risk? can we really guarantee quality?

Again all, thanks for your opinions, its a great discussion!

 

[goldmaniac]

I believe pictures are also a very important way to ID a polyp, especially polyps for sale, as we're discussing, but polyps can vary widely in their looks depending on lighting conditions, and pictures might alter buyers' expectations.
I have Red People Eaters in my tank where the ones up near the top, surrounding some novice SPS corals, are a light rust color, almost the color of terra cotta, and another (sister) RPE colony on the bottom (24" deep) of my tank that are a darker purple-reddish color. We know that it's possible for colors to vary widely. They're the same specimen but with moderately-different coloring. but they're both RPE colonies and in this case, a name is a better description than a picture, in my opinion.

I don't think pictures are the only way to assist in identification of zoas. Names are also a good tool. The fact that some reefers buy into "LE" or named polyps as being special is a side effect of the names, that's all. again, just my opinion.

\ I bought the original colony of RPE's because a picture showed them as Apple Red, they've never been that RED red for me since. I got them about 2 years ago. I think in this case, the picture was a misrepresentation. But i learned after that, and i'm not complaining. I still like my RPE's.

 

[roblack]

Anyone who thinks buying named and expensive corals is counter to the idea of fun reefing should consider not complaining about it. Why not buy what you want, and don't buy what you don't want to pay for. Wouldn't that be more fun? If other people are into something they aren't, let em have at it and don't worry yourself about it. Seems like complaining about it is counter the fun of reefing. IMO people complain because they want something that has been named and thus probably more expensive, but do not want to pay for it, so they complain about named corals and the people that support the market. A good alternative is to engage in trades or buy from other RC reefers who are likely to give you a good deal.

 

[goldmaniac]

+1

 

[dalston]

Hey roblack, just curious, do you sell polyps at these prices? Do you sell by the 1 & 2 polyp frags?

 

[dmorel]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14570928#post14570928 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dalston
goldmaniac,

dmorel, how are you sir? thanks for replying!

You said "but at the end of the day the thing that is most valuable is the guarantee of quality"

Can you guarantee the quality of a single polyp that has freshly fragged from another frag? it seems with the famed and desired polyps, as soon as a head has budded, its chopped up and sold. For $50+ per polyp is it worth the risk? can we really guarantee quality?

Again all, thanks for your opinions, its a great discussion!

YES! I can guarantee (or certainly should be able to) --- That is EXACTLY my point and why I am always so completely frustrated by this conversation in the zoa world. In the SPS portion of this hobby if you tried to sell some random piece of pink mille as a Scripps Pink Millepora you would be a fraud. And there is a good reason why I would MUCH rather have a piece of Scripps Pink Millepora vs some random recently wild collected piece from the ocean. Forget about the impact it has on the reefs when collecting, just look at it purely from a selfish standpoint. If I buy a new wild colony of pink mille I have no idea what it's going to look like in my tank under my lighting in 6 weeks, or whether or not it will even be alive since the stress of the move could very well kill it. However... I can say with a high degree of certainty that given even a moderately reasonable environment my Scripps WILL be pink, and WILL Live. and if it doesn't I have probably done something very very wrong.

Just because a couple of zoa's look like blaine's PPE's or Tub's blues does NOT mean they will exhibit the same behaviors. If you don't KNOW what you are getting you can not reasonable assign a value to them. Therefore the only value that can be assigned is that which the market will bear. What I don't get and is a source of much frustration to me is why zoa keepers in stark contrast to the SPS collectors I know believe that the names refer to the color schemes rather than the lineage. Those who are quick to dismiss the lineage have fundamentally (and to the detriment of the hobby) missed one of the key components of paying a premium for a coral fragment. Valuing a non "verifiable" coral at the same rate as one whose history is known is where I see a real problem, and honestly I do believe it borders on criminal.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14572350#post14572350 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by roblack
IMO people complain because they want something that has been named and thus probably more expensive, but do not want to pay for it, so they complain about named corals and the people that support the market. A good alternative is to engage in trades or buy from other RC reefers who are likely to give you a good deal.

Absolutely, but again I suggest that there is a high likelihood of complete misrepresentation of a named coral.
I have these zoa's:

which probably look something like an armor of whatever whatever but they aren't.
they are just some rock I grabbed at the LFS for 40 bucks that colored up really nice I wouldn't have paid 20 bucks a polyp for them, but I could probably sell them for that if I was willing to misrepresent them as whatever they look like.

Trading locally and even not so locally is the best way to get the good stuff, no question but someone has to start with the good stuff. In PHX metro a few years ago I had the good fortune to have been paired up with some like minded reefers and we founded a non profit called PROP whose singular purpose was to buy a bunch of very desirable corals and grow them out in our tanks and sell them at auction for very low prices. I'm happy to report that after several years that goal has been achieved.

Sorry for such a long post but it's something I'm kind of passionate about.

 

[IridescentLily]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14572350#post14572350 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by roblack
Anyone who thinks buying named and expensive corals is counter to the idea of fun reefing should consider not complaining about it. Why not buy what you want, and don't buy what you don't want to pay for. Wouldn't that be more fun? If other people are into something they aren't, let em have at it and don't worry yourself about it. Seems like complaining about it is counter the fun of reefing. IMO people complain because they want something that has been named and thus probably more expensive, but do not want to pay for it, so they complain about named corals and the people that support the market. A good alternative is to engage in trades or buy from other RC reefers who are likely to give you a good deal.

So, you're saying that people can and should talk about their 20-50 dollar polyps, but others who don't like it should just shut up. So that you have one group talking, and one group shouldn't?
That doesn't seem quite fair. Even if I don't agree with them.

Someone wrote here that along time ago zoas cost this much, and now they cost this much and that's just the way it goes in America.
But it still doesn't make any sense to me.
Milk and bread and gas "used" to cost a certain amount, and they are more expensive now.
Milk "used" to be .50 and now it's 2.00 a carton.
Bread used to cost .35 a loaf, and now it costs 3.00. In about 10 years or 20 years that increase happened.

But the people who are talking about prices of zoas and palys have some excellent points in my opinion:
Average zoa costs "used" to cost 1.00-5.00 per polyp, and now they cost 10.00-70.00 per polyp.
That's a 100% to 15 times increase per polyp folks.
In a couple of years. and as I understand it, the same polyps ones were around as are currently?

Can you imagine if everything cost 100-500% more than it used to?
Bread would be what...50.00 a loaf or something like that.
And people make bread. They don't grow in the ocean.
I bet people would complain about that.