The 'infamous' named polyps

[Jenisiz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14567906#post14567906 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dalston
Thanks for the reply! I think the whole fun of reefing is hunting down the wonderful corals we desire, does this mean I should pay well above what they are worth? absolutley not. Here is what I do - find out the delivery day's in your LFS and get there as they come in, there is one LFS somewhat close to me that never labels any of their zoa's or paly's, evrything sold is around 10 polyps and priced between $10 and $25...most of the colorful polyps I have were obtained at a reasonable price, its just about getting there first. Also I take a day out and drive a little further than I normally would, make a day of it, not only do I find some real gems I get some much needed 'away' time and see some sights along the way. I have found that most of the hobbiest's I have been generous with and given frags to have at some point returned the favor...to me, this is what makes reefing fun, not just sitting on the net thinking these prices are the be all and end all.
Just curious, what desert do you live in?

I know of which LFS you speak...and yes, not only do they over charge but they only get so so zoos...head south towards mill...check out there frag section. I've scored some Darth Mauls...and what not for around 5 bucks...plus, it helps when I get first dibs on shipments hehehehe....

P.S. I can't wait to move back to Ahwatukee...I miss that place..Gilberts...blah

 

[kawicivic]

Sadly I do not think a name is to blame here. The market it what the market is. I like being able to name polyps and identify them that way. BUT I believe that the pricing that is associated with named polyps is ridiculous. The name is not the cause but greed is.

I am only commenting on the subject as I was asked too.... I am not complaining or whining. I buy what I like and either suck it up and pay the per polyp price or work out another way to get it.

I truly believe in trading and selling frags for cheap. When I entered this hobby, I was so excited for my first frag swap. Every other hobby I done that has similar swaps are great places to go to get deals on items. I figured the same would be true in this hobby... WRONG! Well at least when it comes to livestock purchases. People in this hobby... the "collectors" as they call them are out to make money. The rarity of coral is not being controlled by nature or growth rates but more by the price. This is an endless circle for most. An expensive frag gets bought for 2 reasons.

1. Its beauty - regardless of the name most expensive corals look nice... I have yet to see a LE Mud polyp (don't steal my idea... I am working on the release of my $40 a head button polyps)

2. Resale.

These itty bitty (1/2 inch for sps and 1-2 polyps for zoas) frags are bought for inflated prices with the whole idea of regrowing and reselling. Sure people like having colonies but how many of these "collectors" showing off their prized colony... these "collectors" continue to frag the corals to make money.

ok... where am I going with this? I truly believe that frags that I picked up for good prices are not something that I should turn around and make money on. That means if I spent $20 on a frag that rarely will you see me selling frags for $20.00. I mean if 4 heads were $20, would I pay $40 for 8 heads? I wouldn't. 4 heads will turn into 8 heads in a month or 2 for minimal investment... really... no additional cost of what I am doing now. If I find a true hobbiest that offers reasonable frags (say $5 for a disc of polyps etc) you won't find me turning around and selling them for ridiculous amounts either. I do not have a large number of rare corals but I have given people ridiculous deals on corals (8 frags for $20 bucks... heck I have even advertised corals online had a person show up and given them away... I would never advertise free corals to anyone as people are greedy and I would see all of my corals for sale at the next swap). Should my tank ever crash I would bet money that anybody I had previously given these deals would GIVE me a frag back... can you say that about the guy you charged $20-$40 for per head? and truthfully... how many corals actually survive in the long run when fragged to single heads? you may be better at fragging then me... but when I snip a 10 head chunk off a rock, I lose very few corals. When I try to pull an individual polyp off a rock there is always a chance of a casualty (yes, I know get a chunk of rock. etc etc etc.).

As of right now I have frag discs of sunset montis waiting to encrust... these are going to be used strictly for obtaining other corals as I would feel like I was cheating somebody if I charged the "going rate".

Has anybody ever seen large polyp rocks for sale? I have seen a few and every single person advertises them by saying that the rock could be chopped up and the buyer could then get his money back plus a profit. This proves that the polyps prices are really not based on their worth. If a polyp was actually worth $40 then a 100 polyp rock would sell for $4000. An argument can be made for economies of scale, but when it comes down to it the only thing that economies of scale is cut profit down to make a determined amount of money. There is no formula for a colony like this... there is no invoice price... it is strictly what someone is willing to pay and how desperate a seller is. All of the colonies that I have seen have sold at drastically reduced per polyp prices.

When a person grows something with minimal costs, I would think they would be willing to pass it on for the same. The hobby would benefit tremendously from this. Sure a store has to make a living... let them sell polyps for $40. I keep fish and coral as a hobby. I will sell you the same polyp for much cheaper. In fact I would be happy to trade you for another coral. I am not looking to make money. I am just looking to "collect" as many corals as I can and be able to sit down and enjoy the habitat that I have created. I see daily sales of people who can't afford to keep their tanks running with the economy the way it is. I am happy to have such a great looking tank and when someone gets into the hobby.. I am happy to help them on their way as well. The more people that do things like this the more the hobby will grow. Also, the more people you make deals with the more people that will be willing to do the same to you and the better off you will be in the future should a disaster hit.

This was not pre written or even planned out so if something doesnt make sense I would be happy to clarify.

There are so many ways to do things in this hobby... sadly... nobody can look past the personal gain to see that ridiculous per polyp pricing is something that could be easily changed and would be great for the hobby in the long run.

 

[dalston]

Hey man, great post dmorel! I can see you are very passionate about reefing and I respect that alot. Many things you have written I agree with. You're right you probably could chop them up for a profit and that is what i'm talking about, some people do! There are people that are making a huge profit from unknowing new reefers selling run of the mill poylps. The buyers (mainly on e-bay) have no idea what they are buying, no idea on the history of the polyp, no idea on the conditions of the tank its coming from, no idea on how fresh the frag is, no idea on the real value of the polyp, and you're right, it's borderline criminal. I am not calling anyone wrong for buying into designer polyps, all I (and others) are trying to do is educate new reefers and let them decide for themselves. Many are led to believe that this is the norm and no other options are available.

Hey I am well aware of PROP too, in fact I will be at the auction on Saturday! This is one of the best causes I have seen, and this for sure is helping the battle against retailers. I know PROP is non-profit and its a great way for fellow reefers to get the desired corals for a reasonable price. I said in another thread that I am lucky to have a great reef club (FRAG and PROP) with many awesome people who trade and even give away frags.

Great talking with you and see you at PROP!

 

[dalston]

WOW kawicivic, thanks for posting! I totally agree with you and you bring some valid, sound points. I have a question for you though...

Do you think the greed and personal gain would be as effective if zoa' and paly's were not named?

 

[dalston]

Hey, I think I know where you are talking about and yeah when i'm able to get there I find some real beauty's...

Oh and i'm probably out of Ahwatukee soon, it's so expensive...probably going to west Chandler or even Queen Creek

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14573058#post14573058 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Jenisiz


P.S. I can't wait to move back to Ahwatukee...I miss that place..Gilberts...blah

 

[roblack]

Lily, I did not say anyone "should" do anything. Just think it is silly to complain about what other people do. Think one can be much happier otherwise, just my opinion. Why let other people upset you about corals and their coral practices? Put that energy into something positive like saving the reefs, children, or fighting some other good fight. Lots of better ways to spend that energy. Really don't sell much, but from time to time I need to make room or want to buy a new piece so will sell a frag of something, but always cheaper than what I paid. But yeah, have a bit of high end stuff, not sure what that means to others, but I am guilty.

 

[roblack]

DMorel, I think wild colonies and pieces of should cost way more than aquaculture, for sooo many reasons. I appreciate your passion and viewpoint.

Comment on the greed issue mentioned by others... Greed is a fact of life, greed exists in the world, not just humans, you can find it in other parts of the animal kingdom as well. As for corals, the worst representation of it is the misrepresentation of corals. If you are being honest, then it is a non issue to me. People have a choice, and I am glad that some vendors are able to stay in business or even prosper while the rest of our economy is struggling. This can actually drive down prices on other corals. A win-win in my eyes, but if you want a frag of Purple Hornets or the Capt America for $1 a polyp because they were all created "equally"in the ocean, don't think that is realistic.

 

[GoingPostal]

I find it pretty funny honestly that people are constantly asking what the "name" of their new polyp or zoa is, usually followed by "how much is it worth". Who the heck cares, if you bought it because you liked it why are you looking to sell it already?

I'm not a huge zoa collector because generally they die in my tank but I have some plain jane green palys and the regular brown buttons that everyone has that grow all over like mad and I don't have to worry about. Now those are "pests" if you ask anyone because they don't make money and they actually thrive everywhere. :lol:

I like the PD and NG and have waited out the storm of outrageous prices because I assumed like most palys they would grow like crazy and prices will drop, still haven't gotten any but it's not like they can't be found at any time. That's the best part of LE crap, it's so limited that it's always for sale, you are just getting raped for it.

The sad part is now everything seems to be going up, chalices that no one would care about a few years ago are hundreds of dollars even without a name, favias that have been coming in are suddenly war corals or prisms or christmas, blah blah blah. And people want "lineage". You got it from so and so and got raped on the price so your frags are worth more than frags that are nameless but look identical? Funny stuff. I'll buy the knockoff anyday, I don't need an ego boost.

If I bought some LE crap I better get some certificate that I can frame up to make me feel special. And you get fingernail sized frags that won't be anything to look at until long after most of the buyers are out of the hobby anyways. Not that anyone hangs onto them that long because then they would lose value.

 

[triton77]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14573003#post14573003 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dmorel
YES! I can guarantee (or certainly should be able to) --- That is EXACTLY my point and why I am always so completely frustrated by this conversation in the zoa world. In the SPS portion of this hobby if you tried to sell some random piece of pink mille as a Scripps Pink Millepora you would be a fraud. And there is a good reason why I would MUCH rather have a piece of Scripps Pink Millepora vs some random recently wild collected piece from the ocean. Forget about the impact it has on the reefs when collecting, just look at it purely from a selfish standpoint. If I buy a new wild colony of pink mille I have no idea what it's going to look like in my tank under my lighting in 6 weeks, or whether or not it will even be alive since the stress of the move could very well kill it. However... I can say with a high degree of certainty that given even a moderately reasonable environment my Scripps WILL be pink, and WILL Live. and if it doesn't I have probably done something very very wrong.

Just because a couple of zoa's look like blaine's PPE's or Tub's blues does NOT mean they will exhibit the same behaviors. If you don't KNOW what you are getting you can not reasonable assign a value to them. Therefore the only value that can be assigned is that which the market will bear. What I don't get and is a source of much frustration to me is why zoa keepers in stark contrast to the SPS collectors I know believe that the names refer to the color schemes rather than the lineage. Those who are quick to dismiss the lineage have fundamentally (and to the detriment of the hobby) missed one of the key components of paying a premium for a coral fragment. Valuing a non "verifiable" coral at the same rate as one whose history is known is where I see a real problem, and honestly I do believe it borders on criminal.




Absolutely, but again I suggest that there is a high likelihood of complete misrepresentation of a named coral.
I have these zoa's:

which probably look something like an armor of whatever whatever but they aren't.
they are just some rock I grabbed at the LFS for 40 bucks that colored up really nice I wouldn't have paid 20 bucks a polyp for them, but I could probably sell them for that if I was willing to misrepresent them as whatever they look like.

Trading locally and even not so locally is the best way to get the good stuff, no question but someone has to start with the good stuff. In PHX metro a few years ago I had the good fortune to have been paired up with some like minded reefers and we founded a non profit called PROP whose singular purpose was to buy a bunch of very desirable corals and grow them out in our tanks and sell them at auction for very low prices. I'm happy to report that after several years that goal has been achieved.

Sorry for such a long post but it's something I'm kind of passionate about.

Hey I have the same ones and I got them for free.

<a href="http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v127/ladyvina97/?action=view&current=0309001.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/ladyvina97/0309001.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

Maybe we can get RC to get involved in this. Kind of like the "government" trying to keep the gas prices reasonable and keeping the greedy companies in check.

 

[triton77]

I say that RC should get involved because I see that alot of hype start from here. The sad part of it is that the ones hyping up new corals are sponsors to sell for 100 bucks a pop (polyp)

 

[PauChi]

Fortunately there's hardly any "Coral Name" ID'ing in Canada .... and because the market is much smaller than the U.S. .... most of the LFS or reefers over here can't overcharged for their corals be it Zoas or SPS or whatever newly discovered Ocean livestocks.

Lately we've been getting shipments of Deepwater Zoas and nobody has yet to come out with any Special names for any of the deepwater zoas. Honestly I don't understand what's all the hype with the "Purple Deaths" or "Nuclear Green" Palys .... I don't find them jaw dropping gorgeous ... they look like any Protopalythoa polyps but with a much more highlighted coloration!!! Plus most corals don't look great when it's not lit up under any supplemental Actinic Blue lights above them .... IMHO

What I think is really wrong with this Hobby is the type of so-called reefers who "advertised" their newly Named Discovery and plaster their potential Ad on forums like RC or elsewhere to entice potential "reefers" to place their orders ...... This Hobby is NOT about making Money but Sharing the Wealth of Knowledge and Experience amongst Us .... the Serious and Dedicated Reefers!!

My collections are shared with a really good reefing buddy and we don't "swap" our corals for money ... more like Corals for Corals whenever we get any new acquisitions between us ....

Paul

 

[Orochimaru]

time to move to canada then.

 

[PauChi]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14577347#post14577347 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Orochimaru
time to move to canada then.

It's more of a close knit Reef community where most reefers and LFS' are based in Toronto. And the airport is close by to most of the LFS' as well.
We either PM or call each other to trade or swap stuffs .... so in a sense we do bump into each other occasionally while "loittering" around the LFS ... with requested frags in hand as well!!

Paul

 

[dalston]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14577135#post14577135 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by PauChi


What I think is really wrong with this Hobby is the type of so-called reefers who "advertised" their newly Named Discovery and plaster their potential Ad on forums like RC or elsewhere to entice potential "reefers" to place their orders ...... This Hobby is NOT about making Money but Sharing the Wealth of Knowledge and Experience amongst Us .... the Serious and Dedicated Reefers!!


Paul

Agreed sir, thanks for your post.

 

[justin_freebord]

i didnt have time to read all of this because i have class in 5 minutes but i thought id throw in my 2 cents.


As a broke college student, i have spent about 250$ on coral (i dont have much in my tank the micro/chalice set me back almost half that). I have a 5 gallon tank, and as you know sometimes things for w.e reason die. I have lost 2 small frags of zoas to zoa pox and im in the process of losing my grape watermelon chalice frag. I've thought about the whole naming thing a lot. When I first set the tank up i only wanted named zoas. I quickly learned how they are very expensive. I thought well w.e they grow fast ill sell them back. Looking back yeah its a good idea if you have no other income like me. I bought a frag pack and now sell 3 or 4 polyps of stuff for like 15-20$ just to try and help me earn some money back. I also plan when i get some more growth to donate to my local reef clubs raffle as well as frag swaps. I dont like paying money for stuff and i know others dont as well.


Another thing ive thought about. Naming. Its a good way for some of the real "known" color morphs to be easily distinguished. However, it gets lost when something gets a random name from a retailer. I dont believe the "name" is what drives the prices. Yes, it does play a role if you look at what naming has become, but i think even if they called a bubblegum monster the greenish blue with pink eyes chalice, it would still demand a high price tag. A lot of the really nice named pieces are also quite stunning in my opinion. The problem is they could probably be a little cheaper only due to those who REALLY REALLY REALLY need named tyree le corals or something to be cool. Who cares about lineage? The naming seems to add just more cost to an already expensive piece due to limited supply.

Basically, naming easily can be blamed for someone paying nearly 200$ for one polyp of captain america palythoa, however, i believe a lot of corals would go for a steep price anyway due to their colors alone. I know i would pay the same price for a frag of rasta watermelon or red watermelon even if they were just named for the color.


my 2 cents

 

[PauChi]

This Naming Game is actually a "Trap" employed to strike it's very first victim to get the Ball rolling ... kinda like a Domino effect!!
After a couple of years in this hobby I've come to realised that ALL collected corals are RARE regardless from where or which regions or parts of the World they're from ... it's the type of people or should I say .... manipulative reefers or some LFS owners that promotes convincing Sale tactics by means of the Naming Game and thereafter have their ways around these :eek1: innocent or naive reefers which usually ends with a hefty Sale price ..... at the reefer's expense!!

Paul

 

[mike fail]

its funny i see all these expensive polyps and my favorites are still eagle eyes

 

[roblack]

Gonna move to Canada as a result of the naming phenomena? This really must be a way more serious problem than I realized.

Keep in mind, if it were not for the few people that are making money off this "hobby" all of our tanks would be barren.

 

[dalston]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14582389#post14582389 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by roblack

Keep in mind, if it were not for the few people that are making money off this "hobby" all of our tanks would be barren.

I think you underestimate exactly how many people are making money from this hobby. Have you noticed how many sellers on e-bay, craigs list and even RC are popping up. It's also funny how everything sold is 'RARE' or 'LE' or 'I am the only person that has this morph' I mean heck, some of these sellers aren't even using their own pictures!

For example here is a quote from e-bay "THIS AUCTION IS FOR 5 EXTREMLY EXTREMELY RARE ZOANTHID FRAGS!!! YOU CANT GET THESE ANYWHERE ELSE"...the picture shows some of the most common morphs available and the seller has used names i've never even heard of. I understand buisnesses need to make money and legitimate sellers are selling based on current going rates but for the most part it's scandalous and is scamming many newbies who simply do not know. This is not helping the hobby and not saving any tanks from being barren. IMO it's actually quite the opposite.

 

[IridescentLily]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14576688#post14576688 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by triton77
I say that RC should get involved because I see that alot of hype start from here.

The sad part of it is that the ones hyping up new corals are sponsors to sell for 100 bucks a pop (polyp)

Bingo. I've often wondered about this. Not sure how some would reconcile this.