The Moorish Idol Thread

[Paul B]

Honestly, and I hope I don't offend anyone by saying this,

Gofor100, you can't offend anyone on here and if they are offended, they are in the wrong place. We all have opinions and we will always have half of the people who don't agree with them. It's just a hobby, no one is shooting at us so it is only important to us and even at that, not very important, thats why they call it a hobby.
Ok after saying that, I agree half way with your statement.

I think the main cause of our fish dying (not just the MI) before their life expectancy would indicate is pure laziness.

It is true that many people in this hobby get spurts of lazyness and I am sure that is what causes some moorish Idol deaths but not the majority of them. Especially if the rest of your fish live 10, or 15 years. If all of your fish are dying in a couple of years, this hobby may not be for you because you obviousely are not trying very hard, but for the majority of members here I think we try to maintain a tank in a way that we feel is beneficial to our animals.
I still feed my fish fresh clam and live worms every day as well as hatch brine shrimp also every day as I have for almost fifty years. Along with that I collect amphipods and other foods in the sea every chance I get. I just came back from collecting an hour ago.
If a fish lives 5 years, it was most likely aclimated and collected correctly.
I personally don't quarantine anything but in my tank with fresh food from the sea along with bacteria and seawater from the sea, I can't. But again, if the fish lives 5, 10, or 15 years, that most likely was not the reason it died.
If a fish dies in a few weeks, it could have been collected with cyanide, not acclimated correctly or any number of things.
But if a fish lives a couple of years then dies, it is most likely our fault because most fish live for decades. The lousy lifespan of moorish Idols in captivity is our fault. I am sure in the sea they live longer than 5 or 10 years. We just don't yet know why.
Mr Tuskfish did much better then I did with a lifespan of ten years, but one person out of thousands or tens of thousands of people keeping one for 10 years is not a great record.:sad2:
Mine also died in an accident, but it was still my fault as it was in my care when the accident happened.

And if I offended anyone, it is what it is.

 

[gofor100]

Gofor100, you can't offend anyone on here and if they are offended, they are in the wrong place. We all have opinions and we will always have half of the people who don't agree with them. It's just a hobby, no one is shooting at us so it is only important to us and even at that, not very important, thats why they call it a hobby.
Ok after saying that, I agree half way with your statement.

It is true that many people in this hobby get spurts of lazyness and I am sure that is what causes some moorish Idol deaths but not the majority of them. Especially if the rest of your fish live 10, or 15 years. If all of your fish are dying in a couple of years, this hobby may not be for you because you obviousely are not trying very hard, but for the majority of members here I think we try to maintain a tank in a way that we feel is beneficial to our animals.
I still feed my fish fresh clam and live worms every day as well as hatch brine shrimp also every day as I have for almost fifty years. Along with that I collect amphipods and other foods in the sea every chance I get. I just came back from collecting an hour ago.
If a fish lives 5 years, it was most likely aclimated and collected correctly.
I personally don't quarantine anything but in my tank with fresh food from the sea along with bacteria and seawater from the sea, I can't. But again, if the fish lives 5, 10, or 15 years, that most likely was not the reason it died.
If a fish dies in a few weeks, it could have been collected with cyanide, not acclimated correctly or any number of things.
But if a fish lives a couple of years then dies, it is most likely our fault because most fish live for decades. The lousy lifespan of moorish Idols in captivity is our fault. I am sure in the sea they live longer than 5 or 10 years. We just don't yet know why.
Mr Tuskfish did much better then I did with a lifespan of ten years, but one person out of thousands or tens of thousands of people keeping one for 10 years is not a great record.:sad2:
Mine also died in an accident, but it was still my fault as it was in my care when the accident happened.

And if I offended anyone, it is what it is.

Agreed... although I know some people don't have as thick of skin as others so I had to put a little disclaimer

Although one thing that acclimating/quarantining helps beyond just a couple of years is that when things do go south (tank parameters are not optimal, other stressors that might occur), a tank with no or very few/little parasites/disease will be less likely to kill the fish. Meaning, if the fish's immunity is compromised somehow due to stress, if there is nothing in the tank that can take advantage of that comprimised immunity, then the fish can more easily recover.

I guess my main point is that proper acclimation and quarantine of this and all fish seem to be overlooked simply because people either 1) Fear they will kill the fish (valid fear, but maybe not when keeping a fish with such a horrible long-term survival rate), 2) Are simply lazy, or 3) Place so many "wild" items in the tank that it is almost pointless to quarantine (like yourself).

To each their own though... I, like you, hope to see much better survival rates with the increase in technology and knowledge of this fish, so I'm glad that there are several out there that have kept this longer than most that can share their insights.

Thanks,

Chad

 

[Paul B]

I really want hobbiests to succeed with this fish, I love the things. I think that we will someday be able to keep any fish for decades.

 

[MrTuskfish]

Lots of good points above. I do think, though, that there is something about Idols that we just don't know, and that makes initial acclimation very difficult. Most Idols are lost because (at least from what I know) they simply refuse to eat anything. Of course, excellent husbandry is needed to keep them, but that doesn't account for the number that are lost during the first weeks. One that I did lose, lasted for about 5 weeks before I had to euthanize him. (relying on memory, Katrina got my notes). I think some of my success has been just plain luck; having them eat son after arrival. Getting healthy fish from an excellent source helps too.

 

[Outerbank]

just because you see it eat flakes at the LFS, don't get excited, they eat everything and look great, but for some reason, eventually they just stop eating, and wither away.

I have occasionally seen my MI fail to eat for short periods of time. (I love Paul B's passion for this fish as I have the same. I think the conversations on this board have been very helpful to people.) This has been a concern whenever it occured and I think it is more GI (gastrointestinal) related than purely "nutritional". The rapid growth rate and streamer regeneration of MIs, the fact they fight off disease, repair damaged fins rapidly, and that they survive longer than a year suggests nutrition alone is not likely the main issue. In the wild, the Grizzlies in Yellowstone are nearly half the size of Alaskan grizzles. Yellowfin tuna and blue marlin in the Gulf of Mexico are almost half the size of those in the Pacific. This size difference is likely diet related (protein) but the smaller grizzly, tuna, and marlin will survive. Slow growth would likely indicate more of a nutritional issue. I worry about my Regal angel as it is such a slowwwwww growing fish.

We need to autopsy a dead MI to examine their gut. I assume it is very small/short. I notice the few times my MI stops eating is after it gorges itself with tons of food (especially large pieces!). It will then throw up and not eat for several days or eat very little. It may try to eat during this time, only to throw up again and stop eating. Fortunately, my MI has always recovered. I am guessing their gut needs easily digestible food that readily passes through their GI system. The few times my MIs vomitted and stopped eating occured when I fed larger pellets, whole PE mysis shrimp, larger pieces of scallops/seafood, or when it went totally nuts eating insane amounts of nori. I have never seen my idol stop eating after feeding smaller portions of flakes, smaller pellets, and smaller pieces of frozen food. I avoid larger pieces of food nowadays and feed smaller amounts but more frequently. My theory is that MIs stop eating due to intestinal obstruction. This can easily lead to sepsis (a very bad infection), anorexia, or ischemic (dead) bowel. At this time, from my experience, I would recommend not feeding MIs large pellets or large pieces of frozen/fresh food. They still need a lot of food, just use smaller pieces, less food volume, and feed more frequently. When a MI eats nori, it grazes and just bites off small pieces. I feed nori every day. I assume MIs eat small bites of sponge at a time as well. I have not seen my MI vomit after eating smaller pellets or smaller pieces of frozen food.

For those that have had MIs suddenly stop eating, did you see them vomit? Were you feeding larger pieces of food? Did the MI seem to overstuff itself with food? Did they have a good growth rate, full body, and appear very healthy? Please chime in so I can form a more solid basis for this theory.

 

[Paul B]

Scott that is an interesting theory. I am sorry i did not have time to autopsy my last Idol because I was away when he died, I usually autopsy my fish if they die from unknown circumstances. If an intestional blockage was the cause,that could probably be prevented. I have never noticed any of my Idols vomit.

 

[gofor100]

That is an interesting theory... I haven't had my Idol as long as many of you, but I did notice him stop eating for a day or so soon after introducing him to the DT. And I noticed that it was after he had eaten a few larger than average pieces of seafood (no throwing up though). Not sure if that was the cause or if it was simply because he was new to the DT, but nonetheless, that is a very interesting theory.

This is the kind of stuff that might lead to more success with this fish... great job Scott. The only question about this theory is why some MI's can get through this and others cannot. Maybe if people listed what foods they feed, approximately what size and frequency per day, we could get a better idea if this could be one of the issues with MI's.

All of my food is chopped up (scallops, clams, shrimp, marine angel frozen food, formula 2 frozen, Rod's Food) using a blender and mixed with whole brine and mysis, along with NLS pellets and Formula 1 & 2 pellets. The largest pieces of food are no larger than a whole mysis shrimp except for the occasional scallop piece that gets through the blender (but even that is not much larger than a mysis shrimp). This is all fed 3 times per day (once in the morning, once about 9 hours later when getting home from work, and once more about 3 hours later when the halides go off). I have an automatic feeder that will be hooked up to add a feeding of pellets in the middle of the day, but this is the current schedule.

-Chad

 

[gofor100]

Double post... sorry.

-Chad

 

[Outerbank]

Paul B, it is interesting you never saw your MIs vomit. That could be a big benefit of feeding sponge. The green sponge may naturally be very digestible. That's one reason why it's always best to mimick the natural foods the fish encounter in the wild (which you always emphasize). Did you ever feed it larger chunks of food?

 

[Outerbank]

This is the kind of stuff that might lead to more success with this fish... great job Scott. The only question about this theory is why some MI's can get through this and others cannot. Maybe if people listed what foods they feed, approximately what size and frequency per day, we could get a better idea if this could be one of the issues with MI's.

Thanks Chad. Great idea about listing foods! Foods I have seen my MI appear to develop GI distress or even vomit are

1. Large NLS pellets
2. Large Formula 2 pellets
3. Excessive amounts of nori. In fact, I don't think they digest nori all that well, but I feel the overall amount they eat makes up for the nutritional loss. Sometimes they poo only partially digested nori. Their expanded bellies seem to shrink fast/return to normal size rapidly after pooing nori.
4. Large Piscine Energetics mysis shrimp
5. Larger size chunks of scallops (as large or larger than manufactured pellet food--ie formula 2 large pellets.)

All of my food is chopped up (scallops, clams, shrimp, marine angel frozen food, formula 2 frozen, Rod's Food) using a blender and mixed with whole brine and mysis, along with NLS pellets and Formula 1 & 2 pellets. The largest pieces of food are no larger than a whole mysis shrimp except for the occasional scallop piece that gets through the blender (but even that is not much larger than a mysis shrimp). This is all fed 3 times per day (once in the morning, once about 9 hours later when getting home from work, and once more about 3 hours later when the halides go off). I have an automatic feeder that will be hooked up to add a feeding of pellets in the middle of the day, but this is the current schedule.

-Chad

Thats sounds like a nice blend.

 

[Dr Colliebreath]

I feed my MI large NLS pellets, PE mysis, and chunks of chopped seafood that are larger than the pellets. I have not noticed any digestive issues or loss of appetite over the 7 months I have had this fish.

I guessed in another post that perhaps feeding the MIs a diet with a higher percentage of protein than they normally eat in the wild causes liver problems or digestive tract cancers or other problems. The sponge they eat may be largely filler and filling them up with protein instead may impact the internal chemical processes.

Also, it is possible that MIs are a short-lived fish. For comparison, the dolphin fish (mahi mahi) lives only 4-5 years even though similarly sized fish in the ocean live much longer.

 

[Paul B]

Did you ever feed it larger chunks of food?

I gave him pretty large pieces of sponge that I collect and banannas. I also fed him Plaster of paris with banannas and fish oil mixed in. Yes, don't read that again, thats what I said.

 

[AliciaP]

Been a while since I stopped by and read, had some catching up to do! What great info!

Almost two months in, my Idol still goes crazy eating off the rocks, and I look around and still see tons of pods and mysids (mysis? not sure which is the word I should be using here). He eats Nori twice a day I refill the clip wiht 3 layers of around 1"x2" pieces. He eats flakes like it's his job now. I feed flakes 3 or 4 times a day (ON Formula 1 and 2). For whatever reason, he could care less about clams. Am I trying to give him the wrong type? Is there a right type? He doesn't care for fish either, I hang it on a clip, but he doesn't care. He is starting to take a serious look at NLS, he's starting to blow at that now which is what he did with flakes for a while. I think he's just a goofy fish, it's his way of testing out the food before finally taking a bite.

Unfortunately, his YT buddy perished I added two circulation pumps and it stressed out every fish I had. I don't know how it makes any sense, but I got a zap from the water the night I added them and I didn't think about it then, but I should have. I only lost the tang, I took the pumps out the next day and spoke with the makers. Sorry for the tangent! Just wanted to say, this little guy is a trooper.

I will try to get a photo up.

 

[AliciaP]

These are photos of when he came in I believe. I haven't taken any this month.

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[ghrowl]

My moorish idol is getting FAT he has a constant supply of Nori to graze on and when I put food in the tank he is right there, vacuuming up everything in sight

 

[pinnatus]

He is starting to take a serious look at NLS, he's starting to blow at that now which is what he did with flakes for a while. I think he's just a goofy fish, it's his way of testing out the food before finally taking a bite.

Mine "blows" to get the food up off the bottom so he can eat it. I have never seen any other fish do this, but the Idol does.

 

[ghrowl]

yeah i've seen mine do that too, when he's scouring the sand looking for pellets..

 

[bskiba]

I went to the local fish store looking for a flame angel and ran into a MI that was happily eating pellets. he agressively ate. So He has been in the tank for a day and is eating out of my tank. Not skinny like the typical one but the store is also here in San Diego so they go up to LA and hand pick the fish.

 

[SDguy]

Did you get it from VP?

 

[bskiba]

I did. But he is nipping at coral. He is going away most likely. sucks also because he was eating well and have wanted one for a long time. DId you see him there?