The Moorish Idol

[Scrandrew]

I try never to do this...but... I go into my LFS. Sitting in one of his tanks is a Moorish Idol. He looked healthy as a horse and was purportedly eatying flake food. My daughter remarked about how she wanted "Gil" from Nemo. In a moment of weakness, I caved and bought the fish. The price was reasonable, and even though I fully expected him to die within days, I chucked out the money. Since that time, I can honestly tell you, I have never seen a prettier and more well mannered fish.

Now, I know, you should not put them in a reef. However, I have seen and read about people who have done so with some success. I have also seen people put other fish into a reef that I would never consider adding, i.e. triggers, etc. I surmised that even if he ate a few of my shrooms, they would regenerate and bounce back.

Anyway, to date, he appears to be thriving. He picks off of my rock just like a tang. He does not really seem to be too interested in any other foods that I offer. But, as I frequently add large quantities of pods, I think (hope) that he will be OK.

That all being said, has anyone else experienced success, or failure I guess, with this fish in a reef, or even in a fish only. If so, please share your stories and give me some tips as to how to make this fish live for years. Tank mates, proper foods, other ideas? I read somewhere that they eat sponges, but, other than the masses of little white "pineapple" sponges that proliferate throughout my tank, I have none. Please help.

A~

 

[JamesJR]

One good food to rty is the new life spectrum pellats. Try the finicky variety as they seem to like this food for some reason.

 

[Serioussnaps]

See Paul B's thread and the thread about moorish idols within the search. There is great info. You have to feed a variety. They love sponge if you can get alot growing on live rock. Paul B. collects his sponge and had his MI for a long time(relatively, but not as in the wild) I suggest not having alot of agressors with them like tangs and such.

Will he eat piscine energetics mysis? This is great protein for him if you can find this exact brand.

You know alot about the fiduciary responsibility and if you give some of that to your MI you can give him a great captive life.



ps. I reiterate finding a sponge source, piscene energetics, and getting a booming fuge and possibly cryptic zone to culture your own sponge.

 

[philter4]

I have kept several, and I posted to the thred on difficult to keep list, I hope this helps.

I am convinced that many fish including moorish idols could be kept by most aquarist if the handling of them by collector and wholesaler was better. Here is why I believe this, not only have I kept moorish idols for more then 2 years with no problem ( I moved form CA to FL so I had to get rid of the tanks for a while) but on my last collecting trip to HI (9 weeks ago now) I collected 8. My family has a house and my uncle who lives there collects and keeps fish as well. I put 3 in his aquarium 1 of which is still there and becoming very agressive at feeding time to the point he is thinking about moving it. I put the other 5 in a temp holding system. 3 of those and the 3 in the fish tank were fed from the first day after collection, the other 2 were only fed once before I returned home. I took 7 with me, 2 from the fish tank and all the ones in the holding system. the 2 that weren't fed were given food after my return, but both wasted away and died. All of the ones that were offered food from capture are still alive and fat and seemingly healthy. IMO if the moorish idol was shipped or cared for quickly after capture those are the ones that survive in peoples tanks.

I may be wrong, and this was by no means a scientific study, but I as I said earlier I've kept them for long periods of time and when I take care of the fish I collect I have been very successful several time.

 

[yoboyjdizz]

Tons of infromation here as serioussnaps mention http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=10987526#post10987526

 

[invincible569]

A, your an attorney.. you should of known how to debate against your daughter's remark. just kidding! I know the feeling too. take good care of it and hope it will do very well in your tank.

 

[Paul B]

Philter, I don't disagree with your findings but I do disagree with the first sentence. I also have had many moorish Idols, two years for any fish is really nothing. I kept most of my Idols for over two years and my last one for five until I killed it in an accident.
Moorish Idols have other problems that seem to manifest after a few years. An Idol should live at least 15 years but as far as I know no one here on RC out of the 7000 or so hobbiests has kept one for more than a couple of years. I personally have never heard of anyone keeping one for even ten years.
Many of my fish are well over ten years old but Idols are a problem. I don't think (IMO) that bad collection practices would affect a fish after a few years in a tank.
Anyway Philter, nice to meet you.
Have a great day.
Paul

 

[philter4]

Just a note Paul B, The moorish idols I collected in Mexico are both still allive 7 yrs later, I moved that is why I only kept them for 2 years. The 2 are still at a friends house where he has a 350 gal miixed reef.

Other fish I've collected myself have similar results, when I moved to FL and set up a tank, I collected a trio of rock beauties and have kept for over 5 years and they started out as sm juv fish, one has out grown the other 2 and has darker yellow plus extensions to the dorsal and tail, the other 2 are females and split the tank, one only occupies about a third, the other the rest and the male runs through both territories. I've also collected and kept bluespot jawfish, another fish that doesn't have that great of a track record. I only lost animals that jumped, the others were/are still alive as far as I know, some went to a LFS and I don't know about them. I also have hard to keep inverts like feather stars and blue bell tunicates. I find that when I keep the animals from collection to home, they tend to do ok. I can only assume that that is because I take care to handle the animal from the net to my tank with as much care as I can, I dive deep usually and I decompress the fish, I use nets only, no drugs or traps, and on inverts depending on how delecate they are no exposure to air and things like that. I don't expect every fish to be handled with this much care, but if a collecter/wholesaler is going to offer certain fish they should put in the extra time and care, look at how much people are willing to spend on a nice fish or invert, here in FL a rock beauty sells retail for under 30 dollars, take the time and charge accordingly and maybe the success rate will rise. If not, I've got no problem with not keeping animals that we can't provide the correct conditions for.

 

[Paul B]

Philter, 7 years with an Idol is an accomplishment.
I stand corrected. I just don't think that if a fish lives two or three years in a tank the collection methods would be a factor. Most of the Idols I dove with in the South Pacific were in shallow water. I diden't see too many below 40' so with Idols anyway, decompression shouldn't be much of a problem.
I think the 350 gallon tank they are in now is a big factor.
Good luck with your Idol and take care.
Paul

 

[philter4]

I agree, any fish that lives a couple of years and dies isn't because of how it was handled by collecter of wholesaler, the problem with things like moorish idols is most don't live 2-3 months let alone years, I just wish there was a better system of accountability to the animals rather then just a dollar sign. It is sad but the morish idol is collected because it sells even if care is questionable before finally at a hobbyiest who will take care of it. If the animal requires more care which means more cost, just sell it for more, the people willing to care for it will still buy it and the people who don't want to spend that money will not so it will self regulate the collection. For example if the cost goes up and if only 200 a year sell but 180 if those live the hobby is better off and the wild population is there for divers to enjoy. Just my own thoughts and opinions, I love a challenge and that is why I collect my own, when the health of my arrivals isn't in question I feel with the knowledge of others before me gives me a greater chance of success.

BTW nice to meet you as well, if your ever down fl way look me up, lots of neat fish and inverts to see down here.

 

[Paul B]

Philter4, I do like diving in FL. but I have been spoiled in Tahiti.
Florada has some nice protected reefs with a lot of life.
I have been diving in New York since the early seventees and we also have a lot of life, the only problem is that you can't see it. Our visability is measured in inches. I rarely can see beyond my arms but the lobsters are big, mean and tasty.
I took this picture of this hermit crab in the Long Island Sound
<-----------<<<<

Take care.
Paul

 

[crazedpuffer]

My mom used to go scuba diving here on LI too. My dads friend does it quite often and says visibilty is much better then you'd think.
Thats a pretty cool hermit.

 

[Paul B]

Visability has gotten much better than 40 years ago. I read my log book and almost half of my dives were aborted because of visability less than a foot. Not it sometimes reaches 5' but not usually in the Western Sound where I do most of my diving. Under the Throggs Neck bridge it gets pretty bad as it does near City Island

 

[triggerfish1976]

I could understand the whole collection argument if these fish were arriving in bad physical shape or had decompression issues but HI is generally considered one of the better places when it comes to getting healthy fish. Collection practices are pretty decent especially if the fish are not deep water so I tend to disagree with collection practices being to blame for MI's captivity track record.
There are many other fish that hobbyist try to keep that exhibit similar trach records like Potters Angels, Regal Angels, and some of the Chaetedonopolus Angels to name a few. They all are reluctant to take prepared foods and when they do they still mysteriously die a few months later. Due to the non-scientific background of most hobbyists "mysteriously" could probably be defined if they knew what to look for. From what I have seen most of these fish die due to nutritional defficiencies which can be overlooked if the fish is eating like a pig and not losing weight or they just don't plain eat anything in which case they die sooner.
If you consider the diet of the MI and the general collection size it is not out of the realm of possibility that it can be compare to another Sponge eating HI endimic the Bandit Angel. Large Bandits rarely acclimate to captivity due to dietary issues but the success rate with smaller specimans greatly increases mainly because they have yet to incorporate sponge as a main source of food. Most of the Idols I see coming into the trade are decent size, rarely under 4" so I am wondering if they have already become so reliant on sponge that they fail to get the dietary requirements in captivity.

 

[Paul B]

Triggerfish, I agree with you about the collection practices. My last Idol was fed sponge almost every day. I believe he would have lived to a ripe old age if I diden't kill him in an accident.
He was almost five.
I collect sponge in NY where it is very common.
Paul

 

[philter4]

Triggerfish1976, I know my test wasn't scientific, but the 2 fish that only were fed once in my holding system arrived home in a condition no different from what I've seen in the LFS. I also understand that this is the first time at treating my fish with "less" care then usual, but it's not the first time collecting fish that are difficult to care for. The 2 that were not well fed until my return didn't live 2 months. I have others that I cared for that are over 7 yrs in captivity.

I'm not saying that it is the collection practices themselves, just everything combined. The collector collects for 2-3 days and drops fish at a wholesaler/distributor, they usually don't feed because shipping is better results when fish not fed for 24 hours to avoid polluting in bag. Wholesaler/distributor has bare tanks and a lot of stress involved with catching and shipping to stores, again, they feed a little, but flake and live brine in a bear tank where the fish are not acclimated to captivity yet. Next on to a fish store a week or two later, at which point every day a net is in the tank even though not chasing the MI specifically, it is still stressed. Now to the hobbyiest home, but the damage is already done.

That is how all fish come to us through a LFS, I've worked as a collector in FL for 3 years, Dolphin Int in the tranship business for 7 years and owned a LFS and high end reptile store in San Diego for 5 years which I sold and it is still there, so I have seen all aspects of the animal first hand from collection to hobbyiest. in the '90's I travelled all over indonisia and northern australia so I've also seen collecting stations in other countries, and HI is beautiful compared the the care some other places, but again IMO it is the whole picture with some fish, not just one phase. It is also an economic, the collector and wholesaler are making money on bulk, not an individual fish so if it takes a lot of care to keep a fish until it is sold they lose money so the care is a lot less involved then the store or hobbyiest.

 

[Scrandrew]

My Moor has now been in my tank for about three weeks. He appears to be in the same condition that he was on the day that he was purchased. Now, additionally, the banner on his top fin is getting a bit longer (about an inch, now, from a banner that was almost non-existent). I assume that this is a good sign. He also seems quite upset when he sees his reflection in the glass. He aggressively tries to get to it. Anyway, two questions. When all of my other fish are "sleeping", when only the moonlight is on, he is still out and about in the tank. What does this mean, if anything? Additionally, would it be wise to purchase a sponge for my tank to allow him to "rip it up and eat it?" I believe that my local fish store can get me sponges that are not thriving for a reasonable price. I have no problem with him, then, pigging out on the new sponge. Thoughts?

A~

 

[Scrandrew]

There is a good article in the August/September 2007 Coral magazine regarding a gentleman who kept a pair of idols. FYI.

A~

 

[triggerfish1976]

Philter,

We have spoke before and I don't consider you the average hobbyists when it comes to fish husbandry. You have deffinately been around the block and been fortunate enough to see most of the fish that you keep in the wild which can go a long way when it comes to properly caring for fish that are generally considered hard to keep.
The point I was trying to specifically make about MI's and HI fish in general is they skip the wholesaler process and get shipped directly from the collector to a retail store or hobbyist. Some do go through wholesalers but most stores can go direct if they want so the handling can be much better than most. I can actually get HI fish sent to my front door right from a collector if I wanted. Besides the physically collection method, I don't know of any better process than that.

IMOP, all of the fish I listed in my original post can be kept and have been kept by hobbyists but each have very specific husbandry needs that need to be met in order to maximize any chance for long term survival but this is also not always enough with these fish so luck does come into play as well.