the pump wars continue

[nixer]

your just not getting it are you?
right now i wouldnt take one from them if they gave them away. first it was no one complained. they sat there and said they would fix it then they make tests which they tried to favor their product. then they came out with the whole it flows farther. then its you have to pay for what you were already charged for.

which parts of that says they stand behind anything!
they are grabbing at straws which is obviously not working!

 

[Allmost]

this is funny.

what tunze is doing, is like if KFC decided to offer Healthy food now on, by taking away the skin and meat off of their chicken, and sold the bones. and advertised "Zero Fat KFC"

then you go back, and say where is the chicken ? and they say " well in order to get what you paid for, we need to charge you extra and give you the skin and .... " LOL

yes, I am hungry so that came to my mind

they basically made the pump, calcualted and tested flow, correctly.
then they realized they will not be able to compete with Ecotech.
so reduced the voltage, made the housing smaller, and FAILED TO calculate and test and announce the new FLOW GPH !

now thy want to charge us more, to get what we paid for, according to Roger, it will be less efficient, larger, and more expensive, and more noise !

marketing students should learn form Tunze.
lol

 

[nixer]

oh great now i want KFC lol

 

[nanonubey]

I think it's funny that the people that are so upset about it are the Ecotech users. I have both and like them each for what they do. I was disappointed for like a second when I read that article then I realized I have the 6105's running at 60-80% already because they move the sand on the far corner at that low of a setting.

 

[poidog81]

wow teal cobra, did Tunze stuff cash in your back pocket? I don't think anyone is bashing them as far as a quality product, but standing behind what they advertised. You bought something being xxx gph, it's not. They should not be charging their customers for a fix that was their mistake. if that was me, I would drop them, and switch to another manufacture.... this a good way for them to loose people and never look back.

 

[Allmost]

I think it's funny that the people that are so upset about it are the Ecotech users. I have both and like them each for what they do. I was disappointed for like a second when I read that article then I realized I have the 6105's running at 60-80% already because they move the sand on the far corner at that low of a setting.

I agree, and please do not get me wrong, I like tunze equipment, and was impressed when I saw Rogers original reply and how he stood behind it.

but their later tries to discredit Sajay and the study they confirmed originally, and now Rogers, saying "there are no free lunch" is making me think twice !

when I saw 6105, I held it in my hand, the size, was good. then looked at the box, the flow was good. then plugged it in, no noise, so I said, wow, small foot print, lots of GPH, no noise, this is worth the 300 bucks ! not knowing, that tunze has changed their design, made it "look" smaller, made it less noisy by reducing flow, and failed to tell me that they did that ! something like MP40 at 50% not making noise ! true, but why buy a MP40 and run it at 50%

anyways ... I hope they correct this ... I really liked some of their equipments, and rogers is honest and nice and helpfull ... but this case ... I dont know

 

[Tank2379]

I am pretty sure they will hash all this out and beef up there supply- The Big Macs are Older than dirt- All this food talk got me thinking...:crazy1:

 

[badazztealcobra]

wow teal cobra, did Tunze stuff cash in your back pocket? I don't think anyone is bashing them as far as a quality product, but standing behind what they advertised. You bought something being xxx gph, it's not. They should not be charging their customers for a fix that was their mistake. if that was me, I would drop them, and switch to another manufacture.... this a good way for them to loose people and never look back.

Now you're just being silly, so I'll say the same thing.... Why are you promoting Vortech so much, did they put cash in your pocket ??? Shilling is a serious offense here on RC so I'd appreciate you not linking me with such allegations without any facts to back them up.

I have always used Tunze and have had nothing but help from Roger with anything I've had problems with. If you've been around long enough you'll know the things I'm talking about. They've gone WAY above and beyond for me with anything I've had an issue with so I will continue to use their products until that changes.

Their product was advertised at a certain flow rate based on their bag test.... Now it is down flow according to a different test, so whos to say exactly which test is the correct one ??? This is my point. Everyone keeps saying they're down X amount of flow, and yes, according to the testing procedure setup in that demonstration they are. But according to their original test and calculations they were at "X" flow which is what they were labeled as.

I don't think they purposely fudged the numbers or anything and hoped that nobody would every test them eventually.

Until there is a standardized test for this though, there is no way to have accurate results across the board. Look at the Vortechs, they look like they are way overpowered in their test because turbulence skews the numbers with that piece of testing equipment.

 

[poidog81]

Now you're just being silly, so I'll say the same thing.... Why are you promoting Vortech so much, did they put cash in your pocket ???

I haven't promoted anyone, just stated the obvious facts at the very beginning of this thread, not a dozen times over or in anyone's defense or opposition.

I'm sorry I didn't mean to accuse... just used it as statement.

 

[Tank2379]

Not one piece of equipment we use in this Hobby is PERFECT everything Fails- Tunze Failed, Ecotech Failed, Hydor was probaably the only one that was Pin Point on there flow charts, But I don't see anyone including me going to buy there product. Like I stated before nothing is Free in this world and things are going to be what it is. Tunze can probabaly care less if custy's leave but they will evenually return once they Hash out the issues...

 

[nixer]

Their product was advertised at a certain flow rate based on their bag test.... Now it is down flow according to a different test, so whos to say exactly which test is the correct one ??? This is my point. Everyone keeps saying they're down X amount of flow, and yes, according to the testing procedure setup in that demonstration they are. But according to their original test and calculations they were at "X" flow which is what they were labeled as.

I don't think they purposely fudged the numbers or anything and hoped that nobody would every test them eventually.

Until there is a standardized test for this though, there is no way to have accurate results across the board. Look at the Vortechs, they look like they are way overpowered in their test because turbulence skews the numbers with that piece of testing equipment.

if the test was not correct then might i ask why are they grabbing at straws?

 

[nixer]

Not one piece of equipment we use in this Hobby is PERFECT everything Fails- Tunze Failed, Ecotech Failed, Hydor was probaably the only one that was Pin Point on there flow charts, But I don't see anyone including me going to buy there product. Like I stated before nothing is Free in this world and things are going to be what it is. Tunze can probabaly care less if custy's leave but they will evenually return once they Hash out the issues...

yes most did fail, but we dont see all those other companies pouting about it and crying foul.

 

[badazztealcobra]

They're doing a few things to increase the flow based on that test. They're changing to a larger front grille (which has a larger opening, which will increase turbulence around the pump and affect the test equipment more like a Vortech would) and going to up the power a little which will bring the speed of the prop up some more.

I don't know if I'd call that grasping at straws, but it's going to cost them quite abit to make all the parts and unfortunately those costs are going to trickle down to the consumer.

I'm not even running 6105's anymore so this doesn't even apply to me currently. Do I wish it were free for all owners ?? Of course. Unfortunately it's not going to be the case.

 

[badazztealcobra]

I'm sorry I didn't mean to accuse... just used it as statement.

Well after having to defend myself when I first joined the sites from someone accusing me of being a shiller (I changed lighting plans about 4 times before setting up my tank :lol: ) I just didn't appreciate the statement. It took a bunch of PM's with moderators to get everything ironed out and was a major pain.

There are quite a few people banned from here currently for this exact reason and I don't want to lose my RC priveledges over someone's gerenal accusations.

 

[nixer]

They're doing a few things to increase the flow based on that test. They're changing to a larger front grille (which has a larger opening, which will increase turbulence around the pump and affect the test equipment more like a Vortech would) and going to up the power a little which will bring the speed of the prop up some more.

I don't know if I'd call that grasping at straws, but it's going to cost them quite abit to make all the parts and unfortunately those costs are going to trickle down to the consumer.

I'm not even running 6105's anymore so this doesn't even apply to me currently. Do I wish it were free for all owners ?? Of course. Unfortunately it's not going to be the case.

man they have made more excuses than carter has liver pills.
sure they should add to the cost, but those that already have them shouldnt be charged that thats plain bad business.

thats like ford charging you for a recall!

what gets me is your making this personal because joe shmoe did what they were paid to do. tunze made the bad choice and they are the ones that are going to see the effects of it. anytime a business flings poo they loose customers period! they would of been better off not even saying anything about the test than what they have done and later fixed it and charged more like it was a normal price increase or just give the updates for free posting it quietly on their site

oh yea also if a business cant handle a neg. or poss. test or review then perhaps they shouldnt open a business

 

[Tank2379]

man they have made more excuses than carter has liver pills.
sure they should add to the cost, but those that already have them shouldnt be charged that thats plain bad business.

thats like ford charging you for a recall!

what gets me is your making this personal because joe shmoe did what they were paid to do. tunze made the bad choice and they are the ones that are going to see the effects of it. anytime a business flings poo they loose customers period! they would of been better off not even saying anything about the test than what they have done and later fixed it and charged more like it was a normal price increase or just give the updates for free posting it quietly on their site

oh yea also if a business cant handle a neg. or poss. test or review then perhaps they shouldnt open a business

Your probably the 0.01% of customers lost by Tunze that your ripping them so bad.. :strange: Like I said they could probabaly careless how many Custy's they lose, Just like Toyota they will gain there customers trust back. I'm not behind Tunze either though I own there Products but I also own Ecotech and Hydor and can really care less about Flow as long as my Corals are happy with the flow that Tunze is putting out before the stupid Test happened then I am happy.

The point is they are fixing the problem yes you have to pay $30 for an extra 800GPH upgrade which most might use and most might not-I just think it isn't that bad, but if I was Tunze I would prorate the cost of flow rate lost at least to make some customers happy with a small refund of some sort. again just my .02

 

[Nuff Already]

I think Tunze's stance is that everyone should have done poorly as they did on this test. The reason that other companies didn't show up as poorly is because turbulence artificially inflates the GPH numbers and their powerheads don't create as much turbulence. The fact that the test was devised by Vortech and run by their intern makes me believe that the test was specifically designed to make Tunze look bad. Those Vortech guys sure know how to compete and market their products. Vortech 1 Tunze 0.

 

[kawicivic]

I think tunze changed their original tune after so many people were ridiculous. I think they realized if they agreed to the numbers that all these people were going to take them to court and say that they had admitted they were wrong. This is only my opinion but I would guess the original intent was to fix it for free and then the flood of emails started. I don't blame then because everyone thinks they are entitled to something even in the case of an honest mistake.

Sorry for any typos....typing on my phone

 

[SkullV]

I think tunze changed their original tune after so many people were ridiculous. I think they realized if they agreed to the numbers that all these people were going to take them to court and say that they had admitted they were wrong. This is only my opinion but I would guess the original intent was to fix it for free and then the flood of emails started. I don't blame then because everyone thinks they are entitled to something even in the case of an honest mistake.

Sorry for any typos....typing on my phone

From what I understand Tunze made a post on a German forum a long time ago admitting the numbers were flawed. This was before the "EcoTech" test ever came out. The link to the post is in one of the massive Tunze vs. Ecotech threads in the lighting/equipment forum. It kind of makes the proposed bias of the "EcoTech" test a moot point.

Here is a link to a discussion of the test conducted 2 years ago (NOT by EcoTech): http://www.meerwasserforum.com/thread.php?threadid=53711&threadview=0&hilight=&hilightuser=0&page=2

The relevant text:

...Meine Güte... Müllsackmessungen...ich glaubs ja nicht !!! ... wenn man als Premiumhersteller nicht mal 1500.- Euro für ein Messgerät übrig hat.... Die Tunze-Werte überraschen mich nicht.. Vor ca. 2 Jahren hatte Torsten Luther uns hier mal besucht..... der hatte eine Aänometer mit, wo man sehr genau den Flow von Propellerpumpen, berechnen kann. Torsten hat sein Meßgerät mit unseren Magnetisch-Induktiven Durchflussmengenmessern gegengemessen und siehe da : ... auf +/- 3 Prozent, stimmten die Werte exakt überein. Bei der Gelegenheit haben wir auch diverse Propellerpumpen vermessen und der Hammer war eine neue, große Propellerpumpe..... anstatt 30.000 Liter Flow, kamen nur laue 11.400 Liter raus.
Aber auch Förderpumpen werden im Markt mit total nach oben frisierten Werten verkauft. Wir testen ja auch Mitbewerbemodelle und es nicht selten, dass die tatsächlichen Förderleistungen, bis zu 60 % unter den gelabelten Werten liegen...
Torsten Luther hat mal hier im Forum über die "geschönten" Werte geschrieben ( incl. Herstellerangaben) und heftig Prügel dafür bezogen. Schön, dass ein Ami das jetzt bestätigt, was wir schon lange wussten.

Grüße ...Klaus

and the text translated through google translate:

... My goodness ... Garbage bag measurements ... I think not! ... as if you do not even premium car manufacturer for a € 1500 .- meter has left .... The Tunze values​​'m not surprised .. About 2 years ago Torsten Luther had visited us here once ..... who had a Aänometer with where to exactly calculate the flow propeller pumps, can. Torsten has to be our instrument with magnetic-inductive flow meters to measure and lo and behold ... to + / - 3 percent, voted in the values ​​match exactly. On this occasion we have also measured various propellers and pumps, the hammer was a new, large propeller pump ..... instead of 30,000 liters of flow, came out only tepid 11 400 liters.
But pumps are totally sold on the market with souped-up values. We test it and yes even Mitbewerbemodelle not rare that the actual flow rates up to 60% less than the labeled values ​​...
Torsten Luther wrote in the forum to talk about the "tarted up" assets (including manufacturer's data) and related violent beatings for it. Nice that a Yank now confirmed what we knew long ago.

Greetings Klaus ...

In the case of this honest mistake, all of the current Tunze owners (including the guy I sold my Tunze 6105 to months ago) ARE entitled to something for free, because the extra 800gph isn't free. They already paid for it. Tunze's issue is no longer with the flow of their pumps, it is with the image of their company. As soon as a company or public figure changes their story when in a crisis they are no longer, and will never again, be perceived as honest.

***NOTHING TO DO WITH POLITICS JUST AN EXAMPLE***Remember what happened when a prominent public figure went on record stating that he "did not have sexual relations with that woman?" He later changed his story to "oral is sex?" After that no one believed him again, his credibility was shot and that is what is happening with Tunze. They did the right thing, and admitted fault as well as promising FREE upgrades to correct the flow ratings. They later changed their story to "the test was wrong, our flow pattern is better anyway, you can get more flow but it's going to cost you." They also stated as a direct quote "there is no free lunch."

Also to respond to a previous comment about only Vortech users being upset. I am currently a vortech user. I was previously a Tunze user, a hydor user, and a maxijet user. I moved over to vortechs long before this study came out because in my opinion they are better pumps, not because of my perception of any company at that point.

 

[thumbsy]

My 2 cents.

This whole 'war' is really more about the test then the advertised output. Why does Tunze under estimate and Vortech over estimate? Whatever tests Vortech was using before gave them a number, Tunze used a different set of tests and came up with a different number. Now, all these pumps are using this new test and suprise, we have a whole new set of numbers.

Looking at the test, it's little doubt why Tunze did so poorly. Their pump is designed to deliver more of a stream (hence the name?). If you put a nozzel on the Vortech it probably wouldn't do as well on that particular test, but it would get a little distance in return. Who knows, maybe this will become the standardized test and all the pump numbers will actually be in relation to something. Even better if manufacturers offered different accessories. So Tunze could offer a new grill without a nozzel, in case you wanted more turbulnet flow. Vortech could offer a directional nozzel that you could attach, so you could get some better mounting options and distance if you needed it.