Aquarist007
New member
Ie poor turn over rate in gph?
the secret to colorful,healthy corals....obvious to some,elusive to many
- Thread starter kevensquint
- Start date
Ie poor turn over rate in gph?
Fibinotchi
Upstanding Citizen
It only makes sense that much ammonia conversion happens right in the display. Algae spores and bacteria that like feeding on the waste as soon as it is excreted, have the first shot at it, and are attached to the normal bacterial film that is on the surface of everything in the tank. Notice how the film on your glass smells when you are doing water changes and the tank level is down. It is mostly unavoidable unless flow happens to be near perfect.
Recap, waste happens in the display, bacteria and algae spores are right there as much as possible to convert immediately. We try not to let that happen by scraping the glass so that most of the conversions happen in the sump or filter.
SantaMonica
Well-known member
I don't think the nutrient flow/flux is as much a matter of water flow as it is a matter of microbe density. Otherwise folks with strong flow would get "no" growth on the glass. But everybody gets growth on glass, no matter what.
Just like in the open ocean where there are no "surfaces", nutrients are absorbed instantly by microbes/algae, and then re-mineralized into nitrogen, oxygen, carbon, etc, by the algae. This is the "microbial loop", and is what runs all the oceans and lakes.
Just like in the open ocean where there are no "surfaces", nutrients are absorbed instantly by microbes/algae, and then re-mineralized into nitrogen, oxygen, carbon, etc, by the algae. This is the "microbial loop", and is what runs all the oceans and lakes.
considering this, what would you recommend to be enough flow in a nano tank of ten gallons, and how would the flow be sculpted??? I want to improve a nano i have in my room and was thinking adding a hydor for it. but if i wanted to immitate natural ocean currents, what should the GPH be for it. ATM it is about 250-300 gph combined into canister filters and return pumps. what GPH rating do you suggest???
:fish1:
dwebster86
New member
This is good information. Going to experiment with it on my new 180 SPS
SGT_York
New member
Brief tyrade on accounting and books that applies to test kit numbers.
There is a number of a period of time and a number for an instant. Test kits only measure a specific instance. Like a balance sheet. You could have a million dollars in the bank or be dirt poor and still have no real idea on the company's profitability. Or in this case you may have low nutrients but significant phosphate introduction into your tank. Which is why you need an income statement for businesses. It will tell you how much revenue is coming in and how much is going out giving you total profitability. Unfortunatley there is no test kit to measure this and we can only really tell by changes between testings.
Just because there is no phosphate on the test kit does not mean that significant amounts were released and subsequently absorbed by algae. Then compare that to an ultra low nutrient tank that has no turnover in nutrients. The test kits would appear to be stellar but there would be no coral growth simply due to a lack of protein.
Test kits can tell you when things are going wrong, but they can't tell you that things are right.
In other words the numbers on your test kits are not absolute you will never be able to say this is the correct level because you are looking at a specific point in time. What the coral needs is phosphates over a period of time. Obviously there is a correlation between the two but it is not absolute.
There is a number of a period of time and a number for an instant. Test kits only measure a specific instance. Like a balance sheet. You could have a million dollars in the bank or be dirt poor and still have no real idea on the company's profitability. Or in this case you may have low nutrients but significant phosphate introduction into your tank. Which is why you need an income statement for businesses. It will tell you how much revenue is coming in and how much is going out giving you total profitability. Unfortunatley there is no test kit to measure this and we can only really tell by changes between testings.
Just because there is no phosphate on the test kit does not mean that significant amounts were released and subsequently absorbed by algae. Then compare that to an ultra low nutrient tank that has no turnover in nutrients. The test kits would appear to be stellar but there would be no coral growth simply due to a lack of protein.
Test kits can tell you when things are going wrong, but they can't tell you that things are right.
In other words the numbers on your test kits are not absolute you will never be able to say this is the correct level because you are looking at a specific point in time. What the coral needs is phosphates over a period of time. Obviously there is a correlation between the two but it is not absolute.
GroktheCube
New member
I just finished taking an accounting course at the local community college (great resource to learn new skills!), and my brain immediately jumped to keeping special journals for food input
.navyfishguy
New member
elegance coral has it right your tank will tell you what going on if you can read the signs. However, I think everyone is bouncing around the well known and stated fact in this thread that algea uses P04 to grow. That being said the reason you have a ton of algea and you P04 is reading 0ppm is because the algea is using it to grow. If the algea in your tank is absorbing the available P04 then what are you going to read on a test kit.........0. You have to be able to read Q's from your tank in this hobby and not only test kits
SantaMonica
Well-known member
Yes the rocks covered in algae make a very good in-tank scrubber.
doctorwhoreefer
In Memoriam
Interestingly enough, my corals responded better to a phosphate level of .1 than 0. Algae growth is minimal, back wall has some whitening at the top, rocks are all clean. I think I have to clean the front glass once a month, all the while the phosphate levels are around .1. The last tissue necrosis event I had on one coral turned around and healed within 4-7 days, I even fed more Nutricell plankton.(not advertising, for reference; didn't want to say I just fed more)
All the while my nitrates are 1-10 ppm. The most active phosphate range I have found, not nearing zero, is .05, and then going up as far as .22. After I cleaned the biopellet reactor(biodigest used monthly;1ml), gac (cleaned not replaced), replaced Poly-Filter, skimmer mechanical filtration sponge I had the tissue necrosis event. PO4 went from .22 to .05 in 24 hours. The little area on the frag was a little smaller than a pencil eraser top. I saw .05 po4 and instead of thinking 'phosphates?! I need zero' I decided to feed more, sure enough it turned right around and stopped the rtn.
Just wanted to share where I'm at. My tank has always done ok, but pretty nonexistent growth. After ignoring the thought of "I need zero phosphates" all of my corals are growing better including the sps. In addition to this I've started using red sea color colors and reef energy. It's been interesting with the lack of the ABC foundation stuff (I use kalk atm) but I would have to say it's been fairly rewarding. No stress during an rtn event, hell yes.
We've all seen those tanks that have elevated phosphates and they look at least halfway nice. So maybe there's something else we need to be looking at as an identifier than phosphates? I've been pretty shocked..
All the while my nitrates are 1-10 ppm. The most active phosphate range I have found, not nearing zero, is .05, and then going up as far as .22. After I cleaned the biopellet reactor(biodigest used monthly;1ml), gac (cleaned not replaced), replaced Poly-Filter, skimmer mechanical filtration sponge I had the tissue necrosis event. PO4 went from .22 to .05 in 24 hours. The little area on the frag was a little smaller than a pencil eraser top. I saw .05 po4 and instead of thinking 'phosphates?! I need zero' I decided to feed more, sure enough it turned right around and stopped the rtn.
Just wanted to share where I'm at. My tank has always done ok, but pretty nonexistent growth. After ignoring the thought of "I need zero phosphates" all of my corals are growing better including the sps. In addition to this I've started using red sea color colors and reef energy. It's been interesting with the lack of the ABC foundation stuff (I use kalk atm) but I would have to say it's been fairly rewarding. No stress during an rtn event, hell yes.
We've all seen those tanks that have elevated phosphates and they look at least halfway nice. So maybe there's something else we need to be looking at as an identifier than phosphates? I've been pretty shocked..
SantaMonica
Well-known member
What this may have been, is a giant reduction in microbe activity. Microbes/periphyton collects on all surfaces from day one, and starts a new few chain. Your polyps grew according to that food. Then the food was gone when you cleaned all those surfaces. Thus the reduction in phosphate may have just been a coincidence.
Remember that microbial food is invisible, and is what causes the huge swarms/schools of fish to stay nears corals/rocks on reefs even when they are being chased by predators.
doctorwhoreefer
In Memoriam
Right, this thought came to me the other day, 'ambient levels of bacteria' coming from the pellet reactor especially.. Which kinda sucks as some state about 'well if you want to reduce phosphates, don't ADD phosphates' but I think dislodging the bacteria in the reactor and dumping the couple gallons is just as easy as many "filters" that require cleaning.. (I think cleaning individual items might be required instead of a mass cleanse of all filtration components)
Perhaps that's the way to do a true test for phosphates eh? Run water through the smallest micron filter you can find and then test the output? Maybe a .5 micron sediment filter will filter out bacterias?(with a carbon block you may or may not be adding/removing inorganic phosphates)
Maximus
Active member
This thread really hits home. Recently, I visited a friend of mine (TFP) and marveled at how healthy his acros were. His acros were vibrant and looked nothing like mine. While admiring his tank, I noticed how many fish he had and how much poop they were giving off. He had lots of tangs and other fish that were constantly "feeding" the corals. I asked him what his nitrates were and he said around 40. The epiphany did not set in until I got home.
As I started mounting some frags that he gave me, all of them were much more colorful than mine. Compared to his frags, mine were pale and lacking color. I was really blown away at the quality of his frags compared to mine and then it hit me. My nitrates have always been at 0 due to a Cermedia nitrate reducing block. I also only have 5 small fish in my tank and feed a pinch of pellets daily. I had realized that I have been starving my corals! What's real funny is that I have been reefing for over 20 years (on and off) and I used to have real colorful corals with fast growth rates. I never tested for phosphates or mg and rarely tested for nitrates until the past couple years. I suppose ignorance was indeed bliss! I immediately pulled my nitrate reducing block and started feeding the tank ( Acropower and Reef-Roids). I am prepared for an algae outbreak due to the excess feeding. I have already bought a lawnmower blenny (in TT atm) and will add a kole tang soon. I figure the tradeoff with the excess algae will be worth it if my corals deepen in color. I just hope I'm right!
As I started mounting some frags that he gave me, all of them were much more colorful than mine. Compared to his frags, mine were pale and lacking color. I was really blown away at the quality of his frags compared to mine and then it hit me. My nitrates have always been at 0 due to a Cermedia nitrate reducing block. I also only have 5 small fish in my tank and feed a pinch of pellets daily. I had realized that I have been starving my corals! What's real funny is that I have been reefing for over 20 years (on and off) and I used to have real colorful corals with fast growth rates. I never tested for phosphates or mg and rarely tested for nitrates until the past couple years. I suppose ignorance was indeed bliss! I immediately pulled my nitrate reducing block and started feeding the tank ( Acropower and Reef-Roids). I am prepared for an algae outbreak due to the excess feeding. I have already bought a lawnmower blenny (in TT atm) and will add a kole tang soon. I figure the tradeoff with the excess algae will be worth it if my corals deepen in color. I just hope I'm right!
doctorwhoreefer
In Memoriam
I agree more nutrients helps a lot, I mean really lol. But I'm not sure I would just call it fish poop. I was housing a porc puffer(emergency housing that I hung onto for awhile), 2 clowns, a green wolf eel, a lawnmower, an urchin, and an army of hermit crabs for the puffer to hunt. I got a few sps, few lps, few softies. All levels were great, phosphates/nitrates were near 0, usually .04 to .07 for phosphate, 0.5-5 for nitrates. Everything was ok, but not growing very fast, fairly colorful though.
I got an apex controller, and an orp probe. I discovered something. Even though the nutrient levels looked ok according to test results, I discovered the orp was pretty flatlined around 200-215. That's horrendously low come to find out. So I decided the puffer was big enough to move along, since the 75 was getting cramped with a 7-8" puffer. I rehomed the eel and clowns as well, and just kept the hermits and lawnmower blenny and urchin. Within 2 days my orp skyrocketed to around 300. Another water change 350. Another wc, 400. Since then it's stayed around 410-420.
Since I've kept the nutrients the same, the food input comparable(I was feeding probably 1/32 of a pound of diy food a day) but the orp has risen so much, the tank has been AMAZING. Things colored up waaaaay more than they were before, and things seem rather livelier than they were. All I can figure is though the nutrient levels were acceptable to the corals, the constant drag effect of all the fish AND food waste was dragging things down. I mean obviously, the orp was just horrible.. lol
I never saw this before the orp reading came into existence for my system. All tests were ok, but something about the look of the tank was a little "off" in the ways of growth being slow. Ever since then things have been great, so I wonder if a lot of the issues out there is people's tanks orp's are flatlined horribly because of excess fish and their waste, but everything else appears normal.
Food for thought.. I thought I was doing a fine job of housing my creatures but indeed there was too much biological matter in the forms of fish that offset the entire system. I've been quite happy now and it seems taking care of the tank is a lot less tedious!
SantaMonica
Well-known member
You'll have a year or so while the rocks absorb the phosphate.
As for the puffer, it's the large amounts of urea/ammonia/ammonium going to into the water which is probably causing the trouble. The same amount of nutrients, if supplied in coral food instead, would be much more welcomed
doctorwhoreefer
In Memoriam
You'll have a year or so while the rocks absorb the phosphate.
As for the puffer, it's the large amounts of urea/ammonia/ammonium going to into the water which is probably causing the trouble. The same amount of nutrients, if supplied in coral food instead, would be much more welcomed
Right. Not too worried about the rocks though, I've found biopellets are pretty effective at managing things. After all, luckily the rocks intake/output a variable rate of phosphates according to ph and in turn you can observe the elongated waveform patterns, versus more exponential changes without bp's. I noticed it in the po4 test results a bit when changing gfo as well. I usually test now once a day with the 736 Hanna to have an idea of trends.
I recall you're spot on though with a previous tank, had a skimmer, sandbed, rock.(no gfo though) That was pretty much a year and then a bloom.
Lol ahhh yes, that was a mess. Lukcily I had only a frogspawn at the time.SantaMonica
Well-known member
I meant that coral foods don't make the large amounts of urea that fish pee does. So for the same amount of coral food or fish food, the coral food will make less urea, because bacteria can't dissolve a chunk of food as fast as a fish.
WestChesterReef
Member
Great read, thank you
