The transition to "au natural"

[sabbath]

Interesting, That sounds almost like the "for a wet/dry" thought. One could run a wet/dry for the fast removal of Am ,nitrites. Then the mangroves for the nitrates.

 

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10811588#post10811588 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sabbath
Interesting, That sounds almost like the "for a wet/dry" thought. One could run a wet/dry for the fast removal of Am ,nitrites. Then the mangroves for the nitrates.

Don, I would run the separate refugium with cheato and increased flow rate for removal of nitrates--far more effecient

That's where the catch22 comes in and why I am thinking of the second refugium with slower flow to protect and enduce the growth of copopods for the tank.

 

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10810262#post10810262 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by T Man
I have noticed that the mangroves grow better in a "mineral mud" substrate versus sand or crushed coral etc. after all, mud is the natural source for the nurtients that they require for growth in the wild. As far as advantages, mangroves remove nitrates plain and simple, just because they are slow growers does not mean that they function any different. I used to have exceptional growth with 175 w MH @ an 8 hr photoperiod, but had a problem with two of the plants overshadowing the remaing trees and ultimately starving them of light- since then, I have planted a dozen more and use a plain old flourescent light for illumination which gives me a nice consistent growth rate and no more competition.
Now, the rubble works virtually the same way as the larger rock in the display with the advantage of more surface area. Nitrates have never been an issue with the mangroves and yes, I totally agree that "You need the low oxygen area that is deeper into the rock". That is why I use the mangroves and mud.
One thing that I have not explained is my theory of success with LPS and clams. While I was in the Marine Corps twenty years ago, I spent two years in the Pacific basically around the Marianis island chain and the other side of the equator (south Pacific) in the coral sea to include the great barrier reef. I spent every precious moment of my "liberty" in the water and grew quite interested in the "lagoonal" species specifically LPS and giant clams- I was hooked! I knew then that the only way to have success with keeping anything for extended periods of time,I would have to emulate the natural "biotope" of the lagoon.
This is what I've come up with, a slightly lowered PH and salinity due to the buffering by the surrounding sand bed and the mangroves, well......they keep the nitrates at bay. I can only say from my expirience, anecdotal as it is, it works for me. TinMan

thanks T-man appreciate you hanging in with this thread--we are all learning alot from you

My delima is still regarding flow
If I use my external refug for copopods etc then the flow has to be reduced
If I use a second refug--like the mangos and mineral mud--then can I increase the flow through there to get the denitrifying affects?
In the case of my flow--its coming into the sump pretty intense even though 10 percent is diverted off to the fug....that still leaves about 2000gph going through the sump.

 

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10807550#post10807550 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sabbath
I would like to know this one as well. I have read posts in the filtration forums. That you need larger live rock to break down nitrates. That rubble will not do it. You need the low oxygen area that is deeper into the rock.

This is why you usually add rubble and a deep sand bed in a refugium.
I have also deepened the sand bed in the main tank so as to support some of the life I am creating in the sump. I relied on the life rock taking the hit and it seems to have been ok--no spikes

before:

after 35 lbs of argonite

 

[frederickk]

Nice looking tank

 

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10819514#post10819514 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by frederickk
Nice looking tank

thanks---lets have a look at your tank and set up----must be fantastic--you listed a lot of fire power esp 3 times 250 halides.

 

[Aquarist007]

I have managed to increase the sand bed from 1/2 inch to four inches in the main tank.
Do you think it would be wise to create another refug--with mineral mud and mangos etc to act as the primary filtration from the main tank-- that way I could keep the flow rate to the second refugium at a minimun like right now to produce the variety of inverts that I want. My system is pictured up a couple of posts.
or should I reverse the functions?

 

[K' Family Reef]

hey Capn
what have you done since w/ your filtration???

have you added the mud/mangroves ?

your tank looks great!... and after seeing your fuge (once or twice ) it was nice to finally get to see your display!

regards

 

[K' Family Reef]

speaking of au natural
does anyone know about setting up a system el natural w/ multiple tanks attached and no skimmer or pumps - heard this mentioned in one of calfos books - may have been him setting it up or had it already had it set up -

anyone know how would this/could this be done ?



regards

 

[Frick-n-Frags]

I used to meditate on an archimedes screw (NO that's not a new mixed drink ) to fill a surge bucket in a way to not run everything through an impeller, then cascade the multiple tanks, so each overflows the next

 

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11303848#post11303848 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by WarrenAmy&Maddy
hey Capn
what have you done since w/ your filtration???

have you added the mud/mangroves ?

your tank looks great!... and after seeing your fuge (once or twice ) it was nice to finally get to see your display!

regards

the second fuge was an intention for over the holidays but am a little wary on the use of the plastic totes after that last post?

it has also crossed my mind to get a nice plexi or glass 90 gal fuge/sump instead

 

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11304052#post11304052 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by WarrenAmy&Maddy
speaking of au natural
does anyone know about setting up a system el natural w/ multiple tanks attached and no skimmer or pumps - heard this mentioned in one of calfos books - may have been him setting it up or had it already had it set up -

anyone know how would this/could this be done ?



regards

Warrren--if you look at my sump system(yeah again)
If I lower the sump to a bottom shelf and place another refugium where the sump is now---IMO I won't need the skimmer anymore.

The water will first enter the mud refugium--then by gravity overflow into the sump/live rock---then return to the tank.
entering the sump will also be the gravity feed from the other refugium(for the reason of adding inverts etc to the main tank)

I think you are basically setup now--with the 50gal tank underneath the ninety--I would be tempted to add some mud and mangroves to that one.

 

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10807550#post10807550 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sabbath
I would like to know this one as well. I have read posts in the filtration forums. That you need larger live rock to break down nitrates. That rubble will not do it. You need the low oxygen area that is deeper into the rock.

Sorry for this answer is so long in coming---

not necessarily IMO----the rock rubble actually creates a larger surface area.
The rubble in a fuge functions more as a habitat for certain kinds of inverts that you are trying to raise for the main tank.

As far as filtration goes from the refugium chaeto algae will absorb phosphates and nitrates. But you must harvest the chaeto to remove the nitrates and phosphates from the water column otherwise when the chaeto dies they are released back into the water column
This requires an increased flow rate through the refugium

If you are trying to great a larger and more diverse amt of zooplankton then you need to reduce the flow through the refugium to about 1/10 of the main flow.

Live rock, rubble requires less flow to give the bacteria more time to work on the water column
Therefore live rock and rubble are best put in the sump --in a refugium there effeciency in the nitrogen cycle is greatly reduced--either by too much flow or not enough flow/exposure to more of the water column

 

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10807695#post10807695 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by edwar050
I know exactly where your coming from. I am almost overskimming my 120 with a modified octopus skimmer. I need to start dosing low ammounts of mag and iodine as well as bump up water changes. I also have a couple of mangroves and have been fairly happy with them though there growth rate sucks.

the quickest way to stop overskimming--IMO and I am defining overskimming as being counterproductive to invertebrate refugiums by removing inverts, useful bacteria as fast as they are produced----

is to turn down the rate of flow through the sump/skimmer area
5 x's turnover per hour--this way not as much water will pass through the skimmer--the water that does is well skimmed however.

 

[webbstock]

Very cool thread...some interesting ideas out there.

I used to meditate on an archimedes screw (NO that's not a new mixed drink ) to fill a surge bucket in a way to not run everything through an impeller, then cascade the multiple tanks, so each overflows the next

Another option would be to use a diaphragm pump. These pumps can self prime, are highly efficient and can move lots of water. Best of all these pumps are low shear, so lots of pods etc. can safely pass through the pump. The one question that I have is if the pumps are "safe" for aquaria use as in the surfaces that contact the SW are inert.

An example of a pump can be found at Pump or Pump2

 

[Aquarist007]

aah---a mangrove thread:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=11312349#post11312349

 

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11312312#post11312312 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by webbstock
Very cool thread...some interesting ideas out there.

Another option would be to use a diaphragm pump. These pumps can self prime, are highly efficient and can move lots of water. Best of all these pumps are low shear, so lots of pods etc. can safely pass through the pump. The one question that I have is if the pumps are "safe" for aquaria use as in the surfaces that contact the SW are inert.

An example of a pump can be found at Pump or Pump2

I am not sure what you mean by inert ?

Here is another link to low wattage high performance pumps:
http://www.coralreefsupply.com/index.php?aquarium=pumps_cl


I actually have mine still from when my sump was under the tank and not in the basement.

 

[webbstock]

By inert, I mean one that doesn't have brass parts that contact the SW so as not leach metals into the tank (or chemicals etc.)

The coralife pump is a centrifugal pump, which means it has an impeller which can "chop" things up. Diaphragm pumps use a bellows like system to move water via positive displacement, which wouldn't grind up your pods etc. However there is a slight surging effect from single bellow pumps.
This is an example of an air-driven diaphragm pump:
Single

This is a double bellows and no surging

Double

 

[usefulidiot213]

I always wondered about using those HOB fuges with LR and DSB for pod production. Then use your sump fuge for Nit removable. That way you can have one fuge with low flow for pods, and one with high flow for filtration...

 

[geoxman]

How is the system coming along?