The truth re NO3 & PO4

The truth re NO3 & PO4

  • Yes, I want nitrates and phosphates at 0

    Votes: 14 26.9%
  • No, I want nitrates and phosphates at minimum levels

    Votes: 31 59.6%
  • No, I control with other means, but try to keep at zero

    Votes: 7 13.5%

  • Total voters
    52
  • Poll closed .

hkgar

Active member
This seems to be a very opinionated discussion, at least from what I have been able to dicern from reading various posts.

Should an SPS tanks have some of these nutrients or not? If so, what range.

I had been dosing vinegar (70 ml daiily - 180 gallon tank) and stopped about 2 weeks ago. NO3 is now at .5 and PO4 is 0.0. Tested with Red Sea Pro and Hanna colorchecker respectively. I was running GFO but stopped that yesterday so PO4 may start to increase.

Is there an advantage to a ULNS? How many SPS keepers dose carbon?
 
I need option 4 - I don't dose carbon, and my N and P are still at zero. You don't have to dose carbon to have 0 and 0.

I am looking for "clear" on Salifert test kits from the top, and bit of color on the N test kit from the side is OK, but I am usually "clear" there too. This is enough to grow coral and algae if you don't have a crew to take care of the algae.

I don't see the benefit of a ULNS, but LNS is fine... which I define as "clear" on the Salifert test kits.
 
I need option 4 - I don't dose carbon, and my N and P are still at zero. You don't have to dose carbon to have 0 and 0.

I am looking for "clear" on Salifert test kits from the top, and bit of color on the N test kit from the side is OK, but I am usually "clear" there too. This is enough to grow coral and algae if you don't have a crew to take care of the algae.

I don't see the benefit of a ULNS, but LNS is fine... which I define as "clear" on the Salifert test kits.


How do you keep them at 0?
 
The bacteria in the sandbed takes care of the N and the aragonite bonds the P until the bacteria needs it to grow and live. I clean the sand slowly over time to keep the gunk from stopping the bacteria growth and development. Basically, the way that everybody did it years ago before carbon was cool and tanks looked just as good as, or better, they do now.
 
I keep my nitrates 5ppm and Phosphates .05 or less. There is very few if any tanks that have a true 0 Phosphates. You are always going to have small traces of organic and inorganic phosphates in your tank.
 
I try to keep it stable as much as possible and maintain them at 0.03 with po4 and n I dont even test anymore I watch my corals and dose accordingly. .
 
Option 5

I dose organic carbon and keep nitrate at 0.2 to 1ppm and PO4 at .02ppm to .04ppm.
Some can do fine without it.

Argonite does not bind PO4 btw.Sand bed bacteria need organic carbon and nitrogen as well as phosphorous.
 
My comment was in response to this:

aragonite bonds the P until the bacteria needs it to grow and live.

Perhaps my comment was too brief leaving room for misinterpretation but I thought it aptly suited the context of this thread.I know some PO4 species stick( reversibly bind or loosely bind ) to aragonite substrate and live rock. It can leach back over time in low PO4 water without bacterial activity or in relation to PH variations . I've made many post saying that. It's different than when it's sunk in the aragoite crystal or strongly bound to gfo or assimiated by bacteria and/or algae. It doesn't just sit around waiting for bacteria to eat it.
 
Everything that I have ever read or heard says that it does not unbind until something makes it. In most cases, this is the living bacteria. In some cases, you can melt it with acid like Muratic.

What most people refer to as leeching is when the sand/rock is so junked up that it does not function very well anymore - this is a slow decline in effectiveness, not true leeching. A well maintained sand bed, meaning that it is just cleaned slowly and surely over time, can/will keep PO4 at very low levels all on it's own.
 
The term bind/ bound as we are using it is a ploblem since we are using it to describe different states.
The PO4 sunk in the argonite crystal stucture won't release unless it dissolved by acidic conditions ,perhaps some localized low pH areas caused by bacterial activity. The PO4 species hanging around on rock surface will equilbrate with low PO4 water ,leaching back so to speak. The later is a common problem often solved by recurring the rock in low PO4 water ( via lanthanum chloride ) for a week or two .

A well maintained sand bed may provide enough surface area and bacterial colonization to keep up with PO4 in the water column assimilation of PO4 from the water column for some tanks., depending on the import level of PO4 mostly from foods. It won't be enough in heavily fed tanks ,ime.
 
The term bind/ bound as we are using it is a ploblem since we are using it to describe different states.
The PO4 sunk in the argonite crystal stucture won't release unless it dissolved by acidic conditions ,perhaps some localized low pH areas caused by bacterial activity. The PO4 species hanging around on rock surface will equilbrate with low PO4 water ,leaching back so to speak. The later is a common problem often solved by recurring the rock in low PO4 water ( via lanthanum chloride ) for a week or two .

A well maintained sand bed may provide enough surface area and bacterial colonization to keep up with PO4 in the water column assimilation of PO4 from the water column for some tanks., depending on the import level of PO4 mostly from foods. It won't be enough in heavily fed tanks ,ime.

+1. The surface of your aragonite rock/sand will adsorb phosphate quite efficiently when it's perfectly clean and phosphate free (albeit with a relatively low affinity by most standards). But, we have things that live in our tank, and we feed those things food that contains phosphate. So, you get an equilibrium between the phosphate in the water and the phosphate on the surface of the rock. When your phosphate level rises it will bind more, when it drops it will leach back.

That said, you really shouldn't count on it to keep phosphate levels in the tank low. As an example, if you are already at equilibrium and your phosphate level is 0.02 ppm because it's been there for a long time, and you all of a sudden start adding more phosphate and the level of your tank water goes to 0.1 ppm, the rock may absorb some of the extra phosphate so it won't go as high (until the new equilibrium is established), but it's not like a GFO product where it will bind phosphate so tightly that the level coming out will be near 0 and you can just toss it when it's exhausted. Along the same lines, if you took that rock that was at 0.1 ppm for a long time and put it in a tank with a level of 0.00 ppm, it will leech the phosphate back, actually raising the level in the water.

So, from a qualitative perspective, the aragonite can perhaps buffer some short-term small changes in phosphate level, but it cannot act as a long-term phosphate reduction method. At the end of the day you add phosphate when you feed the tank, and unless you yourself physically remove it through skimming, carbon dosing (which is probably just more skimming), macroalgae, GFO, etc., it will stay there.
 
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