The ultimate angelfish gift... and the Centropyge shepardi that aren't!

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15672870#post15672870 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by glassbox-design
I believe the correct pronunciation would be "ken-tro-pie-gee". However, the soft C is most often used. Latin rarely exists in the spoken form.

Ning, You're bringing back nightmares from grade school with all the -a / -us !

Yes, except that Centropyge is Greek, not Latin. :D

You're correct, the American version of pronunciation of scientific Latin names is not the same as the version used in most Latin countries (e.g., Spain, Italy, etc.). We Anglicize their pronunciation. People in Italy pronounce scientific Latin names in a manner more closely associated with vulgate (spoken) Latin, sometimes called Church Latin.

So-called reconstructed classical Latin pronunciation didn't even exist in modern times until sometime in the last century. It was certainly not known, or at least not common, when I went to school a long, long time ago. :D

I don't think I could ever possibly get used to saying WAY-nee, WEE-dee, WEE-kee for Veni, vidi, vici, which I was taught to pronounce as VAY-nee, VEE-dee, VEE-chee. And I would pronounce Gaius Julius Caesar as GUY-ioos YOUL-i-oos CHAY-sahr, not KYE-sahr.

I notice that the reconstructionists haven't bothered to transliterate all of the classical Latin texts, such as Caesar's Commentaries or Cicero's Orations back into classical form. They're all still printed exactly as they were after the invention of the printing press with lower case letters and letters that didn't exist during the classical period.

For example, since there were no lower case letters and the letters 'g' and 'j' had not even been invented yet, and the letter V was used for 'u' in both its vowel and consonantal forms because 'u' had not yet been invented. 'V' was pronounced the same as today's 'u' back then. And there was no 'g' because 'z' was used in place of 'g' and 'z' as in the Greek zeta had not yet been imported. And 'w' (double v) had not yet been invented. The third letter of the Roman alphabet, 'c', corresponded to the third letter of the Greek alphabet, gamma, and it was used for both 'g' and 'c' sounds. The seventh letter of the Roman alphabet, 'z', was used in place of 'g' but it was rarely used, just as the letter 'k' was rarely used.

Caesar's name was written: CAIVS IVLIVS CAESAR, not Gaius Julius Caesar. In fact, C. is still the abbreviation for Gaius, so you will often see Caesar's name written as C. Julius Caesar in texts today. And punctuation back then was virtually non-existant.

The first line of his first chapter in the Commentaries on the Gallic Wars was written: GALLIA EST OMNIS DIVISA IN PARTES TRES. Lower case letters had not yet been invented.

I think most of us would find it extremely difficult to read classical Latin in its original form much less pronounce it. :D

BTW, there are a couple of excellent guides to the pronunciation of Anglicized scientific Latin according to American rules online somewhere. I used to have both of them stored in my bookmarks but I lost them when my last computer crashed. As far as the word Acropora is concerned, I have always heard it pronounced as Ah-CROP-or-ah, which is the American Anglicized pronounciation of the Latin word Acropora. Just think of the Acropolis in Greece and how we pronounce that word. We don't say Ah-cro-PO-lis, we say Ah-CROP-o-lis. :D

Anyway, we're the only ones who think that our rules for the pronunciation of scientific Latin are the correct ones. Even people from other English-speaking countries pronounce many of those names differently from us. And virtually all of the people from Spanish-speaking countries and the Italians, as well as even the Germans, pronounce Latin names closer to Latin, not English, rules. For example, we would pronounce C. potteri as POT-er-eye but they pronounce it exactly as the English word pottery. That's because the Latin 'i' is always pronounced as 'ee' even when it is the last sylable in the word. And if a word ends in a double 'i', we say ee-eye but they say ee-ee.

:lol:
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15673002#post15673002 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Luiz Rocha
I am with you in this one Ninong, and I think it is both a soft "c" and soft "g".
Yes, I forgot to mention that it was a soft 'c.' I just figured that would be understood. :D I wasn't counting on Eric introducing re-constructed classical Latin pronunciation into the pronunciation of a Greek word. Just joking, Eric. :lol:

So you and I both agree that Centropyge should be pronounced as Cen-tro-PEE-gee with a soft 'c' and a soft 'g.' Great, that makes one more for my side. I usually hear the third sylable pronounced as PIE and the last sylable pronounced as either gee or ghee. Both of those pronounciations, I believe, are incorrect. :D

Actually I have an interesting story about this. I am originally from Brazil, and as you may know we speak Portuguese there, which is much closer to Latin than English is, so I've learned to pronounce the names "latinized"; we actually had classes to learn this during my biology undergrad.
What a coincidence. I was talking about this in my lengthy response above and then you pop up and raise the exact same point. :lol:

To tell you the truth, it infuriates me the way Americans pronounce many of the Latin scientific words but if I pronounce them closer to the way I was taught Latin in the early 1950's, then nobody knows what I'm talking about. If I say potter-ee, for example, instead of potter-eye, everybody thinks I'm talking about my latest acquisition from the Pottery Barn.

I have noticed that the Aussies and the New Zealanders all pronounce algae with a hard 'g' instead of the way we pronounce it over here.

So, "i" and "y"s are especially troublesome for me. I think they should all be "ee", even in names like randalli (yes, pronounced randallE would be closer to Latin).
Yes, of course! The American version of Anglicized Latin pronunciation is absurd in many respects but if you don't pronounce it the way they now teach it in American colleges they think you're uninformed and they might not even understand what you're saying.



The origins of loriculus will have to wait for a bit, I haven't heard from my sources yet, and I am packing to go to Bali tomorrow morning. But I will keep you posted.

Haha, this thread is taking a strange turn!
Okay, thanks! Have a nice trip to Bali.

:D
 
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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15673081#post15673081 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Luiz Rocha
Wow, complicated Ninong! In this case, I am pretty sure joculator is a "noun in apposition" (or a name transformed into an adjective) and those don't need to be the same gender as the genus.
That makes perfect sense to me, Luiz. Actually, now that I think about it, joculator is obviously substantive and therefore does not have to be changed. In English, if a word like that is used as an adjective, we would call it a 'substantive adjective.'

:D
 
huh, I say "pottery" too. I guess it's because of my 4 years of latin - in scientific names I pronounce the i as the letter "e", and ae as the letter "i".

thread-derail-1953.jpg
 
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Eric,

In American Anglicized pronunciation of Latin scientific names, the final 'i' in dedicatory names (heraldi, eibli, potteri, pylei, randalli, etc.) is always pronounced as a separate sylable and it is always pronounced 'eye.' :lol:
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15673696#post15673696 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by LobsterOfJustice
I guess it's because of my 4 years of latin

Eric,

How were you taught to pronounce Veni, vidi, vici?

Were you taught reconstructed classical Latin pronunciation: WAY-nee, WEE-dee, WEE-kee?

Or were you taught church Latin pronunciation: VAY-nee, VEE-dee, VEE-chee?

And were you taught to pronounce Caesar as KYE-sahr or CHAY-sahr? The first is reconstructed classical Latin and the second is church Latin. Cicero is pronounced kickero in reconstructed classical Latin. :lol:

:D
 
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I do a lot of volunteer work in the field of prairie restoration in Chicago. We have the same debates about plant names. Most of the volunteers use common names and the profesionals use latin names. There was much debate about the pronuciation of the latin names as the volunteers started to become better trained.

We pretty much came to the conclusion that you chopped the word up into consant - vowel groupings and as long as the other person in the conversation could figure out what plant you were talking about your pronuciation was acceptable.
 
Cas,

Prairies? In Chicago? :D

Anyway, I found the online guide I was looking for herehttp://capewest.ca/pron.html.

That's a guide to the way scientific names are pronounced. It's not exactly the same as the way those words are correctly pronounced in either vulgar (spoken) Latin, which is often called church Latin, or reconstructed classical Latin.

:D
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15673782#post15673782 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Ninong
Eric,

How were you taught to pronounce Veni, vidi, vici?

Were you taught reconstructed classical Latin pronunciation: WAY-nee, WEE-dee, WEE-kee?

Or were you taught church Latin pronunciation: VAY-nee, VEE-dee, VEE-chee?

And were you taught to pronounce Caesar as KYE-sahr or CHAY-sahr? The first is reconstructed classical Latin and the second is church Latin. Cicero is pronounced kickero in reconstructed classical Latin. :lol:

:D

I'm not eric :) , but I was taught reconstructed classical.
 
To expand on loricus = breastplate...

lorica - latin, leather cuirass or corselet; loricula diminunitive.

Also has a lot of related words dealing with harness or "mail clothing" (not male - like chain mail).

I had no idea what a cuirass was so here is the definition of that:
1. A piece of armor consisting of a breastplate and backplate fastened together.
2. A hard protective cover on an animal

and corselet: a piece of armor covering the trunk.

So is the flame angel any more bony, plated, or armored than the average centropyge?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15700466#post15700466 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by LobsterOfJustice


So is the flame angel any more bony, plated, or armored than the average centropyge?
I don't think that has anything to do with it. I doubt that the name loriculus was intended to be directly descriptive of Centropyge loriculus. We will have to wait for Luiz to look this up for us and tell us exactly what Günther had in mind when he named this fish C. loriculus in 1874. After all, he used a name that Linnaeus first used in 1758 as the genus name for a genus of hanging parrots.

Is it possible that Günther thought that the flame angelfish reminded him of the Loriculus genus of hanging parrots? Is it possible that the word Loriculus was used for the hanging parrots because of their colorful breatplates? Maybe the flame angelfish's brilliant coloration reminded Günther of the colorful breasts of these parrots? Anyway, that has always been my hunch and why I asked Luiz to look it up for me.

On the other hand, maybe both Linnaeus and Günther had the same thing in mind when they chose the name loriculus -- Linnaeus as the name of a bird genus and Günther as a fish species name. Maybe the flame angelfish was not named after the parrot genus that had been named 116 years earlier.

:D

P.S. -- Here are photos of Loriculus galgulus (Linnaeus, 1758). Note the flame red breast plate on the males. Don't forget, Linnaeus wrote Systema Naturae in Latin, which was the language used for scientific texts in the early 18th century, so he would have been well aware of the Latin meaning of loriculus. One thing that bothers me is that I believe loricula would have been more correct because lorica is feminine. In any event, Loriculus is the name Linnaeus chose as the genus name for hanging parrots. I have a hunch that the flame angelfish's name is somehow related to this genus of hanging parrots.
 
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Re: taxonomy and nomenclature- dont get too hung up on trying to decipher why certain latin and greek words are used for certain animals. In some cases it is descriptive of morphology. However, in many, it means nothing, or was based on a misperception.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15705737#post15705737 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ocd_mariner
One of these guys is supposed to be on DD later tonight according to the sneak peak...

Yes... I spoke to Kevin about this fish and told him the story when I got mine... it's from the same collector in Cebu... and is apparently small like mine... :) The cat is now out of the bag on these guys... you better be quick on the refresh and checkout on this fish... it will be gone in a flash... (no I'm not buying it) :)

I'll chime in more later on the nomenclature... as this thread has gone nuts! :)

Copps
 
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I've been checking since i got the update and they didn't post the hybrid??? I was very curious as to how much it went for...
 
I'd be pretty upset if they sold it from the sneak peek list. Perhaps someone called and made an offer. If that's what this sneak peek list is going to be, I don't support that at all.

Hopefully they just couldn't get a good picture.
 
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