The Ultimate DIY Rocks!
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Insane Reefer
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I'm hitting Hobby Lobby tomorrow 
medic29
Premium Member
yeah, I got my strips from ebay the other day and just began using them yesterday and today.
I took my first batch of rocks out of the vinegar water solution today, rinsed them and the bucket and then filled the bucket with fresh water. After several hours, I checked the pH using my new strips and it hasn't changed, still around 7.
On a slightly different note, the first batch of rocks I made several months ago (not the baked ones I talked about above), I had them out sitting on a table in the sun for several days, then last week I put them in a container and filled it with water; I wanted to see how they would affect the pH; when I checked the pH today with my new test strips I tested out at 7. I'm wondering if these rocks are finally ready to go into my tank?
Is there a way to test to find out if anything is leaching out of the rocks or is the only test we can do is watch the pH? I was thinking about setting up a tub or bucket with salt water (just like I was setting up a new tank) and test the water parameters to get a baseline, then put the rocks in there and check the water parameters on a frequent basis to see if they affect any of the parameters we check.
Any ideas??
I took my first batch of rocks out of the vinegar water solution today, rinsed them and the bucket and then filled the bucket with fresh water. After several hours, I checked the pH using my new strips and it hasn't changed, still around 7.
On a slightly different note, the first batch of rocks I made several months ago (not the baked ones I talked about above), I had them out sitting on a table in the sun for several days, then last week I put them in a container and filled it with water; I wanted to see how they would affect the pH; when I checked the pH today with my new test strips I tested out at 7. I'm wondering if these rocks are finally ready to go into my tank?
Is there a way to test to find out if anything is leaching out of the rocks or is the only test we can do is watch the pH? I was thinking about setting up a tub or bucket with salt water (just like I was setting up a new tank) and test the water parameters to get a baseline, then put the rocks in there and check the water parameters on a frequent basis to see if they affect any of the parameters we check.
Any ideas??
Insane Reefer
New member
Actually Rick, that was something we had talked about not too long ago (3 months maybe?) - air kuring. Rustylugnutz brought it up the other day too.
Air kuring allows the CO2 in the air (and rain if left outside) to chemically alter the C-S-H of hydrated cement into Calcium Carbonate. Calcium Carbonate has a pH of around 7.
This was were the email I posted from the cement.org guy was going - that if we could use a CO2 chamber, it would quickly accomplish this and have low pH rock. Unfortunately no one has volunteered to help me with my DIY CO2 Chamber, so I am researching other ways of using CO2. I'm wondering if using something like seltzer water to make the mud would do anything at all - something called a "supercritical fluid" (basically both a liquid and a gas (at the same time?) form of CO2 is used to assist in producing homogeneous carbonation - which would be just awesome for us.
But really, really impractical.
So thoughts turn to what we can use at home and carbonated water comes to mind. Not going to produce near the same results, but might help somewhat toward the goal.
I'm also wondering what repeated wetting and drying cycles might do towards this end...
Did you do any water changes on this rock, Rick? A kure other than just sitting outside?
Anyway, stir that test container good, but if it still reads 7, and your rock has been in for a week or so? I'd say you are good to go.
A few people have been trying the air kure (I have a few more pieces too), and seems that air kuring might be almost as effective as water kuring.
More tests should be done - it would be nice for the traditional methods if you could get as much kuring by just leaving it alone as you would by wasting effort and water. Though you'd still probably need to flush some crud out, but a few water changes are better then a lot of water changes...
Unless you have access to a lab, and people who know how to use all the stuff in it, we are pretty much limited to the same things we test our tank for. Might want to test for Phosphates or Silicates, if you have them handy, or if your LFS will do the tests for you (some will, some may charge) - those might be interesting to see, but it is pretty much that or the "chuck it in and see if crap lives or dies" test...
Air kuring allows the CO2 in the air (and rain if left outside) to chemically alter the C-S-H of hydrated cement into Calcium Carbonate. Calcium Carbonate has a pH of around 7.
This was were the email I posted from the cement.org guy was going - that if we could use a CO2 chamber, it would quickly accomplish this and have low pH rock. Unfortunately no one has volunteered to help me with my DIY CO2 Chamber, so I am researching other ways of using CO2. I'm wondering if using something like seltzer water to make the mud would do anything at all - something called a "supercritical fluid" (basically both a liquid and a gas (at the same time?) form of CO2 is used to assist in producing homogeneous carbonation - which would be just awesome for us.
But really, really impractical.
So thoughts turn to what we can use at home and carbonated water comes to mind. Not going to produce near the same results, but might help somewhat toward the goal.
I'm also wondering what repeated wetting and drying cycles might do towards this end...
Did you do any water changes on this rock, Rick? A kure other than just sitting outside?
Anyway, stir that test container good, but if it still reads 7, and your rock has been in for a week or so? I'd say you are good to go.
A few people have been trying the air kure (I have a few more pieces too), and seems that air kuring might be almost as effective as water kuring.
More tests should be done - it would be nice for the traditional methods if you could get as much kuring by just leaving it alone as you would by wasting effort and water. Though you'd still probably need to flush some crud out, but a few water changes are better then a lot of water changes...
Unless you have access to a lab, and people who know how to use all the stuff in it, we are pretty much limited to the same things we test our tank for. Might want to test for Phosphates or Silicates, if you have them handy, or if your LFS will do the tests for you (some will, some may charge) - those might be interesting to see, but it is pretty much that or the "chuck it in and see if crap lives or dies" test...
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
Also...The longer you dry cure it, the shorter the wet cure (PH stabilization) will be. In other words, your total cure & stabilization time will be shorter if you wait 30 days before you put it in water (with exception to the heating practices Insane Reefer prescribes).
Calcareous rock does have buffering capacity and will maintain a high PH. It will also act as a passive calcium source, but it won't keep up with the demand of a reef tank. It will also bind phosphate and silicates, and provide adequate sites for beneficial bacteria (both aerobic & anaerobic). Silica has a more limited pore structure, and tends to cause diatoms and dinoflagellates.
Some people argue that silica sand provides bioavailable silicates, while others claim it is insoluble like the glass and silicone your tank is made of. Either way, the lack of sufficient biofilm development makes silica substrates a haven for nuisance algae, while calcareous media provides a suitable pore matrix to support the microorganisms that out-compete algae. This is why slime algae grows on your glass, and not in your aragonite substrate.
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
You could make a rock kiln out of a metal storage shed and a propane Co2 burner, like the ones greenhouses use. It would provide heat, water & lots of Co2.
As propane burns, it creates H2o & Co2. A burner would provide lots of Co2 without excessive amounts of heat. The only difference between a Co2 burner/emitter and a propane furnace, is the furnace has a heat exchanger to separate the heat from the gas. Nobody wants a house full of carbon dioxide.
A pressurized Co2 bottle and regulator would also work, but you wouldn't have the benefit of the heat and moisture.
A small circulating fan should be used to push air across the floor, as Co2 is heavier than atmospheric air, and tends to drop and linger at your feet.
You can buy an electronic sniffer, which measures the Co2 in the air, and hook it up to a controller to govern the amount of propane burned (maintaining a pre-set level of Co2). You can also buy a syringe-style tester for manual testing. The low-tech method would be to use a home Co2 sensor/alarm.
I have no idea how much you would need to aid in the curing/stabilization process. Cities have an ambient Co2 level of 400-500, while rural areas are lower at 300 ppm.
The equipment can be costly, but it's cheaper than soaking the rocks in Perrier. I'm sure it would be a worthwhile process, if it works.
http://www.hhydro.com/cgi-bin/hhydro/CO2_CONTROL.html
As propane burns, it creates H2o & Co2. A burner would provide lots of Co2 without excessive amounts of heat. The only difference between a Co2 burner/emitter and a propane furnace, is the furnace has a heat exchanger to separate the heat from the gas. Nobody wants a house full of carbon dioxide.
A pressurized Co2 bottle and regulator would also work, but you wouldn't have the benefit of the heat and moisture.
A small circulating fan should be used to push air across the floor, as Co2 is heavier than atmospheric air, and tends to drop and linger at your feet.
You can buy an electronic sniffer, which measures the Co2 in the air, and hook it up to a controller to govern the amount of propane burned (maintaining a pre-set level of Co2). You can also buy a syringe-style tester for manual testing. The low-tech method would be to use a home Co2 sensor/alarm.
I have no idea how much you would need to aid in the curing/stabilization process. Cities have an ambient Co2 level of 400-500, while rural areas are lower at 300 ppm.
The equipment can be costly, but it's cheaper than soaking the rocks in Perrier. I'm sure it would be a worthwhile process, if it works.
http://www.hhydro.com/cgi-bin/hhydro/CO2_CONTROL.html
Insane Reefer
New member
Oh Yeah? LOL
If I had batteries (really need to remember those!), I'd show you where slime grows, lol
My tank is sitting at 3.5 months old - guess what is starting? Yeah, maturation bloom
And it ain't on my glass - it is on my southdown
Actually, it is because my LFS still hasn't gotten the Loc-Line pieces I need and my SB gets little movement as a result... Bad LFS...
And I need a water change, even though my parameters are good.
Bad Me...
Insane Reefer
New member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10095021#post10095021 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mr.wilson
You could make a rock kiln out of a metal storage shed and a propane Co2 burner, like the ones greenhouses use. It would provide heat, water & lots of Co2.
The equipment can be costly, but it's cheaper than soaking the rocks in Perrier. I'm sure it would be a worthwhile process, if it works.
Awesome Mr. Wilson. Thanks for the info. I'd been playing around with the idea of something like this, but hadn't really put too much thought into it yet.
To clear up the misunderstanding, the idea of the carbonated water is to use it to make the mud - replace H20 with Perrier
Not soak the rock in it. Not unless I make my own, but we were warned that using carbonic acid as a bath would strip the carbonated surfaces away to reveal the fresher stuff - so I might wait on that. Though on that line, you'd think the same thing would happen with the vinegar solution, but it doesn't seem to be the case, so maybe it would be worth trying. I can make C02 water for pennies on the gallon...
Insane Reefer
New member
Mr. Wilson, (and anyone else too) do you think your shed idea could be shrunk down to a metal 50G barrel? I have a couple of those handy, and for trial runs would be a lot cheaper to hook something like this up. If it works, then I could consider building bigger for a more commercial application.
But that is a thread for another day.
This sort of thing isn't something very many people would/could do, just to make some rock, so I think this will probably be a geeky "me" thing
It will be interesting to see - if I get around to trying it...
But that is a thread for another day.
This sort of thing isn't something very many people would/could do, just to make some rock, so I think this will probably be a geeky "me" thing
It will be interesting to see - if I get around to trying it...
medic29
Premium Member
IR - when I read his post, I was thinking the same thing...how can I make something like that in a smaller version. I had even thought about taking a heavy metal shelving unit and enclosing it with some metal with doors and placing my burner from my turkey fryer up through the bottom and using that. Then I also thought about the metal 55 gallon barrels. Years ago we made a wood burning furnace out of a couple of these for the garage and it worked great.
If I can get my hands on a 30-50 gallon metal barrel, I may try it. What about using an old propane grill? Would that work as well? Could one use this to "bake" the rock and also have the benefit of the CO2? Just another thought...and probably be easier to construct.
If I can get my hands on a 30-50 gallon metal barrel, I may try it. What about using an old propane grill? Would that work as well? Could one use this to "bake" the rock and also have the benefit of the CO2? Just another thought...and probably be easier to construct.
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10095189#post10095189 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
Oh Yeah? LOL
If I had batteries (really need to remember those!), I'd show you where slime grows, lol
My tank is sitting at 3.5 months old - guess what is starting? Yeah, maturation bloom
And it ain't on my glass - it is on my southdown
Actually, it is because my LFS still hasn't gotten the Loc-Line pieces I need and my SB gets little movement as a result... Bad LFS...
And I need a water change, even though my parameters are good.
Bad Me...
Yeah, diatoms and dinos will occur in any, and all, new tanks no matter what you do.
I've rid tanks of dinoflagellate outbreaks in the sand by removing the "Southdown" and adding "pure" aragonite. Some sources of "Southdown" mix silica sand in to make it go farther. Caribbsea used to do the same up until about 1992. After they cleaned up their act, the diatoms ceased.
If you have generic aragonite such as Southdown, look for shiny, opaque, quartz-like crystals in the sand. You can separate the suspected silica and do an acid test. This may only occur with my local (Canadian) sources.
Use a white sand star and a pair of Valenciena gobies if your sand problem persists. Directing flow down to the sand can actually make matters worse, if it's pushing detritus into the substrate.
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
I don't want to talk you into anything that will burn your house down, but any propane burning source will provide heat, H2o & Co2.
You could (insert legal disclaimer & hazard warning) use a propane torch or heater to supply Co2 to a metal drum. Propane heaters have a Co2 stripper (filter) built into them, so you don't release Co2 into your home. You would have to (and once again, you didn't hear it from me) bypass the Co2 stripper for it to work for your purpose.
A much safer method would be to borrow a Co2 bottle and regulator from your calcium reactor, or a friendly fellow reefer. I would set it to supply a soft spray (much more than drops) every six hour on a timer (your regulator would have to have a solenoid in order to do this of course).
Since the barrel is small, and fairly sealed, the Co2 should last a long time. I don't however, know how much Co2 is consumed in the process of curing cement. I guess adding more aggregate and a bonding agent like carpenters glue (to make up for the lost bonding strength) would require less stabilization and curing time. Less portland = less hydraulic process & subsequent PH shift.
You could (insert legal disclaimer & hazard warning) use a propane torch or heater to supply Co2 to a metal drum. Propane heaters have a Co2 stripper (filter) built into them, so you don't release Co2 into your home. You would have to (and once again, you didn't hear it from me) bypass the Co2 stripper for it to work for your purpose.
A much safer method would be to borrow a Co2 bottle and regulator from your calcium reactor, or a friendly fellow reefer. I would set it to supply a soft spray (much more than drops) every six hour on a timer (your regulator would have to have a solenoid in order to do this of course).
Since the barrel is small, and fairly sealed, the Co2 should last a long time. I don't however, know how much Co2 is consumed in the process of curing cement. I guess adding more aggregate and a bonding agent like carpenters glue (to make up for the lost bonding strength) would require less stabilization and curing time. Less portland = less hydraulic process & subsequent PH shift.
Neptune777
Premium Member
I have Type N White Portland Cement available locally (Federal Brand). What is different about type N compared to type I/II. I asked but have not heard anything yet....
Insane Reefer
New member
I take it dry. I know my local store seeds it in the system before they sell it, unless it all sells out of the kure barrel before they can get it inside.
Not sure about the other 2 stores, but I assume they are doing the same.
Insane Reefer
New member
You could easily google the difference. Type I/II is what you want though. Usually unusual letters in the type mean that it is for special applications...
BOKER420
Premium Member
I picked up some (limestone grit?) from Tractor Supply. I think it's ok. It's called Dairy-White Sweet Barn Lime. I talked to a person from the company that makes it and she said it is 100% calcium carbonate. So is this the same as limestone grit? It's only $2.99/50lbs so it's nice and cheap. Well I hope it's ok because i made a sweet rock using 1/2 this and 1/2 CO.
Insane Reefer
New member
Sounds good, Boker - let's see some pics!
BOKER420
Premium Member
I'll take some pics of the barn lime bag and the new rock when I take it out of the cooler I molded it in tomorrow.
The weird thing is that the barn lime stuff looks like granite grits in a limestone powder. The stuff is white but when you wash it the smaller rocks are colored and some shiny. I put some of the washed grit (rocks) in vinegar and there was a lot of bubbleing so does that mean it's limestone forsure?
The weird thing is that the barn lime stuff looks like granite grits in a limestone powder. The stuff is white but when you wash it the smaller rocks are colored and some shiny. I put some of the washed grit (rocks) in vinegar and there was a lot of bubbleing so does that mean it's limestone forsure?
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