The Ultimate DIY Rocks!

[Insane Reefer]

It really does seem to work just fine, Mr Wilson. The first test piece I made of it seemed sort of crumbly at first, and so I just tossed it aside and forgot about it, but I found it again a few months later and it was like pumice; it could also hold up a 150# person.
Now, what the long term effects of using the salt might be, we will have to wait and see - DEF is a very possible outcome, but that might not be a big issue considering all the voids and space. Only time will tell.

My husband did remind me of one fossil find that we have that might work, and that we might be willing to go looking for again, but it would be later in the summer as it is around St. Louis (2.5 hours away), and we have to skirt a National Forest to try to find some that wouldn't be quite so illegal to gather. I'll get a picture of it in the morning and post it for you.

 

[Neptune777]

Does anyone have pics of established reef tanks (with SPS) that are made using MMLR as the dominate rock work?

 

[Neptune777]

FYI, I sent an email to perlite.net inquiring about it's safety with fish and coral. Here is the answer I received:

Thanks for your e-mail. I'm actually an aquarium enthusiast myself and I've 5 fish tanks at my home. Three of them are fresh water, one is salt water (fish and live rock only - no corals), and I'm in the process of changing the last from fresh to salt. With a ready supply of perlite, I've actually used quite a bit of it in my fish tanks, though this has been with fresh water only (our salt water tank is our newest - we've only had it for about 6 months). I've used perlite rocks and also crushed perlite (both are the non-expanded variety) as a gravel. I gave up using crushed perlite as a gravel because of its lighter weight (non-expanded perlite has a density of around 65 pounds per cubic foot). If any managed to get under the undergravel filter it would have a tendency of getting sucked up into my powerheads and I got tired of having to constantly clean them. Anyway, I've had no problems with fish health in using perlite. And, I've always believed that perlite would make an ideal medium in aquariums because of its high surface area.

I wish I could speak with some authority and experience of the issue of perlite and corals in a salt water environment. I can't imagine that you'd have any problems with perlite, though. As you already know, perlite is basically a glass. It is sterile (perlite is expanded at around 1600°F). One of its applications is its use as a filter aide for such things as pharmaceuticals, beer and wine. It has a US Food Codex approval. It is used in all kinds of household products from tooth paste to detergent. If you were to ask me my best guess, I'd say no I
don't think there would be any issue in using perlite with corals.
But, again, I've never seen perlite in man made live rock.

I hope that I've been of some help. And I'd love to know how things go if you do decide to try using perlite! Best of luck and please feel free to ask me any other questions you might have!

Sincerely,


Jim

James C. Duncan
Redco II / American Perlite
www.perlite.net

 

[goldmaniac]

Sounds like a Seal of Approval to me...

 

[mr.wilson]

Apart from the question of whether it's reef safe or not, you need to establish if there's a benefit over oyster shell etc.

To my knowledge, it lacks the chemical composition and filtering capacity (pore matrix) of oyster shell or aragonite.

I'm not going to talk anyone out of using the stuff, but it's a shame to see people jump on a product before it's merits are proven.

 

[Neptune777]

Pore matrix is VERY good in perlite. It's used for filtering....

As far as jumping on a product without proving it's merits. IMO thats what we are discussing in this thread.

Here are the merits worth noting thus far:
It's dirt cheap
Readily available
Will cause rock to be porous without having to melt rock salt....it will also create more pores and surface area than the rock salt method IMO.
Did I mention it is dirt cheap...which is one of the reasons why people make MMLR.

Are these not good reasons to check it out?

 

[Neptune777]

Mr. Wilson....since you have done several DIY rock reefs do you have some recent pictures with established reefs with your DIY rock? Every picture I have seen on the net is just of new rock/new tank.....nothing with beautiful encrusted SPS.

 

[mr.wilson]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10218142#post10218142 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Neptune777
Mr. Wilson....since you have done several DIY rock reefs do you have some recent pictures with established reefs with your DIY rock? Every picture I have seen on the net is just of new rock/new tank.....nothing with beautiful encrusted SPS.

Just to clarify, I haven't made any DIY rock, just reef walls, over plumbing and to bond live rock.

It's a new process for me, so the tanks are only 7 months old with the reef walls. I posted some befaore and after (7 months) pictures earlier in this thread. http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1094586&perpage=25&pagenumber=25

You can see the coraline algae growth is the same or better on the DIY rock, as it is on the live rock. I attribute this to the bioavailability of calcium and lack of competition on the faux rock.

 

[Neptune777]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10218323#post10218323 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mr.wilson
Just to clarify, I haven't made any DIY rock, just reef walls, over plumbing and to bond live rock.

It's a new process for me, so the tanks are only 7 months old with the reef walls. I posted some befaore and after (7 months) pictures earlier in this thread. http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1094586&perpage=25&pagenumber=25

You can see the coraline algae growth is the same or better on the DIY rock, as it is on the live rock. I attribute this to the bioavailability of calcium and lack of competition on the faux rock.

Thanks for the clarification! BTW your rock walls look fantastic....
I just wish I could see a full blown SPS reef with all DIY rock....for peace of mind. I'll be doing the rock work for my 220g next week and will be doing 99% MMLR. I run SPS dominant....

My plan is to use Quikwall, Crushed Coral, Agagonite sand for my rocks and walls...

 

[lubricus]

I went down to the creek today and found some more of my rocks. not all of them were buried in the damn, they were so light that they ended up being washed down stream I managed to fined about 150lb's. but I only brought home about 80lb's I'll go back for the rest next week.

I gave the ones that I brought home a good washing and now there going to have a long salt water soak in a spare tank that placed on my balcony facing south so it'll get plenty of sun! Im curious to see what happens to my little outdoor reef? its only going to be out there a few months becuse im not ready for them yet, it might take a bit of time before the 95g is running. anyway I put a power head in it and did a water change in the Nano and added it to the tank.

Yes i have to much time on my hands!

 

[mr.wilson]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10218483#post10218483 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Neptune777
Thanks for the clarification! BTW your rock walls look fantastic....
I just wish I could see a full blown SPS reef with all DIY rock....for peace of mind. I'll be doing the rock work for my 220g next week and will be doing 99% MMLR. I run SPS dominant....

My plan is to use Quikwall, Crushed Coral, Agagonite sand for my rocks and walls...

It will work out fine. You just need to remember that you won't have the biodiversity of live rock, and your SPS colonies won't add much to that.

Your cycling and stabilization period will be longer, but it will catch up eventually. DIY rock is more of a long term goal of a perfect tank, than instant gratification. You can taylor each rock to fit exactly how you want, but it will go through more growing pains than seeded rock (natural or man-made).

 

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10217958#post10217958 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mr.wilson

To my knowledge, it lacks the chemical composition and filtering capacity (pore matrix) of oyster shell or aragonite.

It does lack the chemical composition - shell and coral are basically calcium carbonate, where-as perlite is pretty much silica.
Though according the the reef "scientists", and most agree, that having calcium based rock makes no matter for buffering because if your tank has gotten to the point that it does buffer, you are pretty much screwed anyway, and the slight amount of calcium, etc it will release (stuff breaks down in solution), is so minuscule as to be almost non-existent.

So if we go from here on, with the idea that for the purposes of this thread, we don't care if it can buffer or not (another thread, another day), we will all get along better (the debates on this subject can get hairy), learn more (as we explore previously untried stuff) and have more fun

And to the second part of your post, Mr. Wilson, I can not say with any authority, but I have seen pictures of crushed coral, on the microscopic level and Neptune posted a picture of perlite in the microscopic, and I have to tell you, they look pretty darn close. If I was honest, I'd say the perlite has more pores, but they are jagged, almost rips in the matrix, not as smooth and rounded as in the CC. Plus, perlite floats, CC doesn't.
I've not seen microscopic images of Shell, but given that usually one side has nacre, which to my thinking is sort of like natures nail polish, there-by covering the surface pores and rendering them useless. Again, I think perlite beats shell, but until I can see an image, I'm not positive...

Perlite does have it's disadvantages:
Extremely Fragile
Tends to float
Looks like a bean-bag chair threw up
Harder to get detail in rock with perlite

But each of the other aggregates has their own problems too, but we figure the good outweighs the bad, and so they were the chosen aggregate of the day.
Maybe the new aggregate of the day will be discovered here - that would be groovy, lol
:smokin:

 

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10218483#post10218483 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Neptune777
I'll be doing the rock work for my 220g next week and will be doing 99% MMLR.

It is never recommended that you use all MMLR for start-up, unless you are keeping a tank for something like seahorses or the like that have to have really unique parameters.
Honestly, make all the rock for your system, but only put half in and use real live rock for the other 50%, on start-up. After 6 months, take the real rock out and replace it with the MMLR you held back, and sell that lovely LR to a local or LFS, which will usually take nice LR pretty readily.
You will get a much greater biodiversity, and get up and running quicker too.

My plan is to use Quikwall, Crushed Coral, Agagonite sand for my rocks and walls...

What? No perlite?

 

[Neptune777]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10219451#post10219451 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
It is never recommended that you use all MMLR for start-up, unless you are keeping a tank for something like seahorses or the like that have to have really unique parameters.
Honestly, make all the rock for your system, but only put half in and use real live rock for the other 50%, on start-up. After 6 months, take the real rock out and replace it with the MMLR you held back, and sell that lovely LR to a local or LFS, which will usually take nice LR pretty readily.
You will get a much greater biodiversity, and get up and running quicker too.



What? No perlite?

I have not made the decision on perlite yet....it's more of a theory that I do not want to rock scape an entire 220g with (yet). More of a fun side project to try something new....

Also, I'm all over the proper way to cycle a tank Aside from pods and corraline live rock contains too many nasties you wish you never introduced.....biodiversity in a reef tank can be a PITA
I've started a tank with all base rock and it thrives asa well as my main reef without bryopsis, aiptasia, pesky crabs....the list goes on and on.

 

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10220018#post10220018 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Neptune777
I've started a tank with all base rock and it thrives asa well as my main reef without bryopsis, aiptasia, pesky crabs....the list goes on and on.

Agree with you there somewhat, just thought I would point out the general advice on MMLR in regards to start-up.
You could also list the much longer list of valuable life that can be found on good quality LR (not the stuff sitting in the LFS holding tank getting lord know what seeded on it).

Personally, I've gotten more "nasty" stuff from the frags of corals I get then I ever got in LR itself...

 

[Insane Reefer]

Mr Wilson, here are the pics I said I'd post.

These are the kinds of fossils we typically find around here, or they are tiny gravel sized bits.
The dark grey one is the one I am thinking of - the area it came from has a lot of this, if you can get to it and get it up (crowbar is your friend). Hauling it back to the car is the hardest part.

 

[mr.wilson]

That's a pretty good haul, and the price is right.

 

[Insane Reefer]

Since I pester everyone for photo's, and I am bad about posting them, well this was the last load of rock I took to the LFS - 75#.

 

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10220171#post10220171 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mr.wilson
That's a pretty good haul, and the price is right.

The gray comes in flakable(?) sheets, starting at about an inch thick, and this is limestone, and sort of heavy (that one piece weighs about 10lbs). I'm thinking shipping to Canada might be a bit much.

Let me know if you want some though - hubby has some time off coming and I might persuade him that we need to go on another rock hound trip - to St. Louis area again...

 

[Insane Reefer]

Ok.
First batch of 'Perlcrete' is ready for a photo shoot.

Sorry my skills with a camera aren't better.
You can see in the "regular" rock how many natural crevices there are - certainly enough to house worms and bugs.

Trickle test has ALL the water flowing into the rock and right back out again.
These pieces are the baked version - the other batch will go through a normal kure. One of those 2 pieces will be done in a bicarbonate bath, just to see what we see.

These pieces do not float. They are every light weight and very porous. The 'regular' piece is quite fragile, but the more solidly packed pieces (floating reef proto's) are pretty darn tough - this rock is around 36 hours old...
I mixed a very dry mix, so possibly a slightly wetter mix will make a better bond with the perlite and add some strength. Also possible that just allowing it more time to cure would have helped on that too.
I like this piece - looks like a disco dancing dude.