The Ultimate DIY Rocks!
- Thread starter JohnL
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Insane Reefer
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Well, depends on what you consider a bloom. I had diatoms for about a week and a half, then it fairly quickly grew this sparse green algae, which never has grown more then these two pictures, taken two months apart, to the day. I'm now getting noticeable coralline: green, maroon and pink. The wall was installed about this time in February.
Mar 3. 2007
June 26, 2007
Aug 26, 2007
Mar 3. 2007
June 26, 2007
Aug 26, 2007
jasonh
New member
Well I guess I'll give an update today. I forgot all about my rocks in a bucket of water for a few days. Took em out, and they're a little brittle. Not so much that they are just crumbling apart, but lots of chunks are easily broken off. I think I need to try again, using a little more water, and see what happens. I think the Perlite may have something to do with this.
I did let the rocks dry out for a couple days, and I have to say, they're about 1/3 as heavy when dry than when wet. Feels kind of like pumice.
I did let the rocks dry out for a couple days, and I have to say, they're about 1/3 as heavy when dry than when wet. Feels kind of like pumice.
Insane Reefer
New member
Yeah, the perlite, by it's nature is weaker then say OS or CC. It really benefits from being left in a moist (not submerged) environment for at least a week before you mess with it, and then it hardens up pretty nicely.
jasonh
New member
I'm using rapid set, so I figured that time might be shorter. Though, I pulled a dumb one and submerged it after 12 hours to get the salt off, then forgot about it
I think next time, I'll let it sit around for a couple days, then a quick soak to release the casting salt, let it sit for a couple more days, then soak for a bit and check the PH. Actually, what I should do is check the PH of my current rocks to see what it's at.Once they are done painting our building (should be Wed) I'll make another couple and see how they turn out.
IR, you need to make a video of you casting some of your cool looking pieces...I'm still not grasping that whole artistic aspect of this
Insane Reefer
New member
I tried to make a video, but it is too dark in my garage for my digi to take a decent video 
When the temp outside goes to the 80's again for a daytime temp, I will see if DH will do the honors whilst I cast.
And I haven't used salt with the perlite - I feel it isn't necessary, but if you use it, I'd just leave the rock completely alone for a week, then do a release. JMO.
When the temp outside goes to the 80's again for a daytime temp, I will see if DH will do the honors whilst I cast.
And I haven't used salt with the perlite - I feel it isn't necessary, but if you use it, I'd just leave the rock completely alone for a week, then do a release. JMO.
Neptune777
Premium Member
"Neptune and Michealalan are the first two to try it so far - Michaelalan reported no difference with micro-silica or without, Neptune has yet to report on his experiments."
I will have results later this week.....I am out of pH strips. I have no worries that this will work (All the literature, Cayars, and Reefballs claim success). No reason to expect different results.
I will have results later this week.....I am out of pH strips. I have no worries that this will work (All the literature, Cayars, and Reefballs claim success). No reason to expect different results.
Neptune777
Premium Member
I agree it is a weaker substance (you can squish it with your fingers). But I have had no issues leaving in it H2O the very next day after casting. I use 2:1 perlite to portland and my rocks are plenty tough.
Neptune777
Premium Member
IR, how are your perlcrete plugs doing with corals on them? Did you ever set that up?
Neptune777
Premium Member
Also, contrary to what was stated earlier in the thread CaCl did not drop the pH of the rocks by itself when used as an additive (not in any short time frame).
jasonh
New member
I also used a 2:1 perlite:cement ratio, with another part or so of OS. Did you have to make the mix a bit wetter than you would think would be necessary?
IR,
I didn't use salt in the mix, just to cast with. The rocks turned out plenty porous without it. I'd use sand to cast, but I don't like how it sticks to the rock. Unfortunately I don't really like the marks the salt leaves either....
Neptune777
Premium Member
Yes, I mix it wetter. I use Perlite
ortland w/o other aggregates.
ortland w/o other aggregates.
Insane Reefer
New member
Yes Neptune, I did do those. You made me scrape the front of my bug-out tank to get a picture, lol
I just took this - as you can see they are both alive.
As I said earlier, there is no growth or division yet, but it has been less then two weeks. The shroom and the star polyps seem to be doing well, but I need to move them up a little - 15W and at the bottom isn't conducive to growth. Note that the mushroom was not glued down, but netted down - it attached on its own in a few days.
Yeah, CaCl won't drop pH - as it turns out, CaCl is simply an accelerator of the "set", not the "harden", which are different. To quote from Nick:
After reading up on it, I've come to the conclusion that all CaCl will do is allow you to remove the piece from the mold quicker - it does not speed the cure of the cement, or at least not significantly.
And all I can say is that I know Michealalan tried several batches with micro-silica, even going as high as 20% with it, and saw no reduction of pH. I do not think he used CaCl, which may be the "magic combo".
But I find it funny that Reefballs still has folks kuring their pieces, don't you? Someone mentioned them maybe "covering their butts", but if this method always works, why would they need to cover their butts?
I think that came about because Reefballs started out as a reef replacement system, and hobbyist saw the method and wanted to reproduce it at home, but since these aren't being dumped in the ocean, then they still need a kure as the pH will still be too high.
And no disrespect to Cayars, but I am from Missouri - you have to "Show Me". We all read about claims made everyday by companies, people, etc. that just aren't true. I'm not saying this is the case, but until we have a few reports that confirm the addition of micro-silica and CaCl, I am going to be a sceptic, and not advocate something I can't say for sure works. I think it irresponsible to recommend the use of something I am not 100% on. Heck, I had to get others to reproduce the Jiffy Rock method before I felt convinced it worked as well for others as it did for me. I'm all for testing it, don't get me wrong (and am sort of excited about it too), and will do a battery of tests when I get my batch from Neptune, but I don't think anyone should be celebrating just yet
And as far as strength and perlite, dumping uncured cement in water is not going to help it cure - while moisture is needed to hydrate, O2 is also needed, and it can't get it out of the water as easily as it can out of the atmosphere, so basically, when you put it in water before the 7-14 days Quickcrete recommended (and almost everything else I've read), you are actually delaying (prolonging) the cure of the rock. And until it is cured, it won't kure.
And as a side note about CaCl and kuring. My Jiffy Rock method includes a weak acetic acid bath - 3 days, immediately following the cool down (and salt release if salt is used). Basically, the rock goes into acid within 48 hours of being cast. This brings the pH down to 9. I have tried on two test rocks with CaCl (but not baked/steamed) to reproduce this, and both times have failed completely (the pH stubbornly stayed above 11) - another reason that I do not think that CaCl on its own will produce the desired results.
I just took this - as you can see they are both alive.
As I said earlier, there is no growth or division yet, but it has been less then two weeks. The shroom and the star polyps seem to be doing well, but I need to move them up a little - 15W and at the bottom isn't conducive to growth. Note that the mushroom was not glued down, but netted down - it attached on its own in a few days.
Yeah, CaCl won't drop pH - as it turns out, CaCl is simply an accelerator of the "set", not the "harden", which are different. To quote from Nick:
From what I understand, CaCl is most often used in cold climes, where freezing or undue cold would normally effect the pour - by "setting" quickly, it allows the cement to finish hydrating without worries about temp interfering.
After reading up on it, I've come to the conclusion that all CaCl will do is allow you to remove the piece from the mold quicker - it does not speed the cure of the cement, or at least not significantly.
And all I can say is that I know Michealalan tried several batches with micro-silica, even going as high as 20% with it, and saw no reduction of pH. I do not think he used CaCl, which may be the "magic combo".
But I find it funny that Reefballs still has folks kuring their pieces, don't you? Someone mentioned them maybe "covering their butts", but if this method always works, why would they need to cover their butts?
I think that came about because Reefballs started out as a reef replacement system, and hobbyist saw the method and wanted to reproduce it at home, but since these aren't being dumped in the ocean, then they still need a kure as the pH will still be too high.
And no disrespect to Cayars, but I am from Missouri - you have to "Show Me". We all read about claims made everyday by companies, people, etc. that just aren't true. I'm not saying this is the case, but until we have a few reports that confirm the addition of micro-silica and CaCl, I am going to be a sceptic, and not advocate something I can't say for sure works. I think it irresponsible to recommend the use of something I am not 100% on. Heck, I had to get others to reproduce the Jiffy Rock method before I felt convinced it worked as well for others as it did for me. I'm all for testing it, don't get me wrong (and am sort of excited about it too), and will do a battery of tests when I get my batch from Neptune, but I don't think anyone should be celebrating just yet
And as far as strength and perlite, dumping uncured cement in water is not going to help it cure - while moisture is needed to hydrate, O2 is also needed, and it can't get it out of the water as easily as it can out of the atmosphere, so basically, when you put it in water before the 7-14 days Quickcrete recommended (and almost everything else I've read), you are actually delaying (prolonging) the cure of the rock. And until it is cured, it won't kure.
And as a side note about CaCl and kuring. My Jiffy Rock method includes a weak acetic acid bath - 3 days, immediately following the cool down (and salt release if salt is used). Basically, the rock goes into acid within 48 hours of being cast. This brings the pH down to 9. I have tried on two test rocks with CaCl (but not baked/steamed) to reproduce this, and both times have failed completely (the pH stubbornly stayed above 11) - another reason that I do not think that CaCl on its own will produce the desired results.
Last edited:
jasonh
New member
IR,
In regards to dumping uncured cement in water, of course, you can't cure traditional portland under water. My soak was simply to remove the salt left over from the casting process. Then, unfortunately, I forgot about it for a couple days. This may or may not have been the issue, considering the bag of cement I purchased advertises it's ability to cure underwater.
My guess is my mix was a tad on the dry side for using Perlite. Once I get my balcony back, I'll be making a couple more rocks, and will know for sure. Heck, maybe I'll drop 1 in a bucket of water, and leave the other out and see the difference
In regards to dumping uncured cement in water, of course, you can't cure traditional portland under water. My soak was simply to remove the salt left over from the casting process. Then, unfortunately, I forgot about it for a couple days. This may or may not have been the issue, considering the bag of cement I purchased advertises it's ability to cure underwater.
My guess is my mix was a tad on the dry side for using Perlite. Once I get my balcony back, I'll be making a couple more rocks, and will know for sure. Heck, maybe I'll drop 1 in a bucket of water, and leave the other out and see the difference
Insane Reefer
New member
Actually you can, it just takes a lot longer.
A bit wetter, and IMO, less aggregate to cement ratio - I like 1:3, personally.
Oh also I think some of you got the impression the micro silicia is somewhat magical with lowering pH. It's not. It helps reduce the time but doesn't do away with cement curing.
I've always used both Calcium and Micro Silicia together so I don't know how well just the MS would be on it's own. Could be the same but I can't verify it.
I can tell you I use 300g saltwater curing vats (as part of the cure) with digital pH monitors connected to an AquaController and can definitely see a reduction in time from cast to good to sell with rock made with Calcium and Micro Silicia. Overall it's about 1/3 to 1/4 less time. For large tanks with high bio-loads (naturally drives down pH) I can go from cast to in tank in 7 days while keeping the pH of the tank no higher then 8.4/8.5.
For typical store rock I normally need 21 days give or take a day or two depending on size of rock unless they are huge pieces which take a little longer. Even with big pieces I cheat and "glue" smaller (pre-cured) rocks together when ever possible.
Carlo
Definitely don't want there to be a misconception on this stuff. Nothing "magical" but every little bit of time savings helps if you sell it.
I've always used both Calcium and Micro Silicia together so I don't know how well just the MS would be on it's own. Could be the same but I can't verify it.
I can tell you I use 300g saltwater curing vats (as part of the cure) with digital pH monitors connected to an AquaController and can definitely see a reduction in time from cast to good to sell with rock made with Calcium and Micro Silicia. Overall it's about 1/3 to 1/4 less time. For large tanks with high bio-loads (naturally drives down pH) I can go from cast to in tank in 7 days while keeping the pH of the tank no higher then 8.4/8.5.
For typical store rock I normally need 21 days give or take a day or two depending on size of rock unless they are huge pieces which take a little longer. Even with big pieces I cheat and "glue" smaller (pre-cured) rocks together when ever possible.
Carlo
Definitely don't want there to be a misconception on this stuff. Nothing "magical" but every little bit of time savings helps if you sell it.
Insane Reefer
New member
LOL,
Sorry - that would be 1 cement to 3 aggregate., hence the "less aggregate".
Sorry - that would be 1 cement to 3 aggregate., hence the "less aggregate".
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