The Ultimate DIY Rocks!

[goldmaniac]

So THEN, I took two of my favorite, more elaborate pieces of rock, and copied them with Federal brand white portland cement. That was quite the search for white cement.

Here's my 2nd round, using white cement:

<br />
<br />
<img src="http://www.goldmaniac.com/fishtank/mm_live_rock_sept_07/bridges.jpg" border="0" alt="">

<br />
<br />
<img src="http://www.goldmaniac.com/fishtank/mm_live_rock_sept_07/bridges_close.jpg" border="0" alt="">

and

<br />
<br />
<img src="http://www.goldmaniac.com/fishtank/mm_live_rock_sept_07/bridges_close2.jpg" border="0" alt="">

I'm about to put the grey rock that WAS in the hex tank into my refugium to acclimate to my system, and move these pieces into water. They've been sitting in my garage this whole summer, and I'm hoping they're not going to take as many water changes as the grey rock.

All in all, i'm pretty happy with the results. my final batch would fill a bathtub, and i'll have a mix of grey and white pieces for the tank. The bigger "bridges", as I like to call them, can always be hammered into smaller pieces, but I should have plenty of holes and tunnels for my fish and inverts, with lots of shelves for my future corals, after everything is acclimated.

Thanks to Travis Stevens, InsaneReefer, Mr.Wilson for their directions, imput and suggestions.
I did not bake this rock, I just was patient.
I used a Rio 2700 or 2900 pump to keep water circulation in the hex tank while water Kuring the grey pieces.
I tried to sift out the bigger rock salt and use pieces smaller than 1 cm in diameter.
I exclusively used rock salt IN THE MIX that wasn't larger than 3/8" inch in any one direction. I used 1/4" garden fencing to sift out the big pieces.

G.

 

[goldmaniac]

BONUS:

using the larger pieces of rock salt, I discovered this summer how lots of rock salt with lots of ice can cool a case of beer in under an hour!!
after two hours, the ice salt water the beer was in was 17 degrees. My beer started to freeze and the caps started popping off!!

So I found a use for the larger pieces of rock salt. No Waste!! ha ha

--> conversely, I found no good way to break the larger pieces of rock salt (marble-sized and larger) into smaller pieces. I just kept buying more bags for $4 each and used the smaller bits, about half of each bag.

I think it increased my total cost of this project to almost a whopping $37. hah.

 

[Insane Reefer]

Awesome Goldman!
Way to go

Thanks for sharing your experiences and your pictures

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10742248#post10742248 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by goldmaniac
BONUS:

using the larger pieces of rock salt, I discovered this summer how lots of rock salt with lots of ice can cool a case of beer in under an hour!!

That is what they use in Ice Cream makers - lots of salt and ice

 

[mmm55645]

Sorry if this is not directly about LR, but it is very close. I have other questions pertaining to rocks that will be answered by asking this question.

I need some feedback on this idea:

problem:
1)Want to have a container for large sump below my tank, no containers or tanks are the right size, and I don't have $ to use glass or arcylic to make a tank to use.
2)also about to construct a stand for my 20g, trying to determine what will work best.
Solution:
Use ferrocement(chicken-wire frame reinforced concrete) or plywood and cement to construct a container to hold water that sits below my tank. Other than the container being really heavy, is there any other reason it would be a bad idea?

It seems good, b/c chicken wire and concrete are cheap and I can make it exactly the right size to hold an optimal amount of water.

Should I use something else to reinforce the concrete instead of using chicken wire? The wire would not be in contact with the water but I don't know how thick the concrete would have to be for it to be safe. If necessary, is there another way to reinforce the concrete without using any metal and still have the strength of metal?


If this works out I was thinking I could construct a stand entirely out of reinforced concrete and build the sump/fug directly into the stand. Of course, if it weighed a ton I guess it would not be a great idea. It would be cheaper though, even if uglier, than constructing a stand and then a tank of unusual dimensions to serve as fug/sump.

 

[goldmaniac]

by its nature, cement is pourous. especially if it's holding a tub of corrosive salt water.

It's a great thought, make your own, but I wouldn't do it myself.

maybe with the waterproof cements that's out there, but I still wouldn't use metal chicken wire on the inside. maybe try to strengthen it with orange plastic snow fencing cpvc or plastic egg crate?

and then I'd still be worried about leakage.

what's the dimensions you need a container to be? you could always saw off the top half of a trash can. the big Brute's are rectangular and not too expensive.
thecontainerstore.com

 

[goldmaniac]

by its nature, cement is pourous. especially if it's holding a tub of corrosive salt water.

It's a great thought, make your own, but I wouldn't do it myself.

maybe with the waterproof cements that's out there, but I still wouldn't use metal chicken wire on the inside. maybe try to strengthen it with orange plastic snow fencing cpvc or plastic egg crate?

and then I'd still be worried about leakage.

what's the dimensions you need a container to be? you could always saw off the top half of a trash can. the big Brute's are rectangular and not too expensive.
thecontainerstore.com

 

[cherubfish pair]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10726366#post10726366 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mr.wilson
If you don't like the look of macro-algae in the tank, then add a surface skimmer in the tank, with plastic eavestrough running the length of the tank, hanging on the back (HOT). A cheap light and powerhead can run such a system. A shallow algae tray like this is very efficient and can be configured to work as a header tank, so zooplankton can be passively fed to the tank without going through a return pump (pump display water into the trough and allow gravity to return it to the tank).

You mentioned you are tight for space, but do you have room for a header tank (refugium) above. It doesn't have to sit directly above the tank.

mr.wilson, what do you mean shallow algae tray and header tank? Can you elaborate?

 

[mr.wilson]

A submersible pump (located in the tank) pushes water across a rain gutter (that hangs on the back of the tank) where it flows over macro-algae, and out of a hole in the end, back into the tank. Alternatively, the rain gutter could be located higher above the tank as a header tank (a tank that is fed by pump and returns water by gravity). Both systems offer gravity feed effluent, so zooplankton can be passively fed to the tank without being crushed by a return pump.

You would have to drill the back of the tank if the gutter is mounted low, so there's a benefit to raising it. The benefit of mounting it low, is it's out of sight and the light can be operated on a reverse photo-period without illuminating the display tank.

Several companies offer a similar HOT (hang on tank) design, but they are much deeper. The deeper design causes the algae to grow in a ball with only the top layer receiving light, so photosynthesis is limited. The lower portion of the "ball" slowly decays and returns it's catch of nitrate and organics to the system water. The gutter system will not have this problem, and macro-algae will not crash and harm your tank. This system also works as a disposable mechanical filter.

Refugia have evolved from "Algae Turf Scrubbers", described by Dr. Walter Adey from the Smithsonian Institute, in his landmark book "Dynamic Aquaria". Other attempts at growing algae to export nutrients pre-dated his design, but they were inefficient methods that resemble todays popular design (a ball of algae in a remote vessel that is only illuminated at the surface, with only passive flow at the surface).

These early, algae-based, nutrient exporters by Adey consisted of shallow trays that optimized illumination and water flow. Algae was grown on mesh media for easy removal and for a better holdfast (grip). It was the right design, with the wrong algae, as he employed the use of derbasia hair algae.

Make sure that the rain gutter is PVC that is free of anti-fungal and antibacterial agents, as this would cause problems. You can make one out of 4" PVC pipe cut in half with an end cap cut in half, if you can't find a safe source for rain gutter.

A cheap shop light, or single aquarium fixture will mount directly above the tray. Powertwist bulbs will fit into cheap aquarium incandescent strip light fixtures. Make sure you use non-corrosive (plastic, aluminum, stainless steel) mounting hardware that will safely suspend the light above the gutter or PVC trough.

If you have a sump below the tank, you can use a similar set-up with multiple levels of troughs (or you could have multiple levels of troughs located above the tank). The water would run from left to right, down to the next level, then from right to left, until it makes it to the sump. This kind of set-up may be hard to access for service, so you should design it so the troughs can be removed one at a time for cleaning. Have it all gravity fit so you don't have to unscrew any fittings.

 

[Insane Reefer]

Ok, so I suck at using the PC to make drawings, lol. I've tried 3 times and just can't get the idea across.

So let's assume I have a plan that will work for the upperworks of the tank. I need to figure out the best possible solution for the floor.

I was thinking maybe doing layers - thin 1/2" layers alternating between really dense rock, and super porous rock, several layers of each. Even thought of making a layer of sand in there somewhere. Wondering if I should leave space underneath the floor, or do it solid.
Still wondering about thickness too.

Idea's?

 

[cayars]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10742248#post10742248 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by goldmaniac
BONUS:

--> conversely, I found no good way to break the larger pieces of rock salt (marble-sized and larger) into smaller pieces. I just kept buying more bags for $4 each and used the smaller bits, about half of each bag.

Fill a bucket with water and get a calendar (sp?) used to strain pasta. Soak the salk in the bucket via the strainer and it will disolve giving you smaller pieces. The hotter the water the faster it melts.

Carlo

 

[badfish03]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10743490#post10743490 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mmm55645


I need some feedback on this idea:

problem:
1)Want to have a container for large sump below my tank, no containers or tanks are the right size, and I don't have $ to use glass or arcylic to make a tank to use.
2)also about to construct a stand for my 20g, trying to determine what will work best.
Solution:
Use ferrocement(chicken-wire frame reinforced concrete) or plywood and cement to construct a container to hold water that sits below my tank. Other than the container being really heavy, is there any other reason it would be a bad idea?

It seems good, b/c chicken wire and concrete are cheap and I can make it exactly the right size to hold an optimal amount of water.

Should I use something else to reinforce the concrete instead of using chicken wire? The wire would not be in contact with the water but I don't know how thick the concrete would have to be for it to be safe. If necessary, is there another way to reinforce the concrete without using any metal and still have the strength of metal?


If this works out I was thinking I could construct a stand entirely out of reinforced concrete and build the sump/fug directly into the stand. Of course, if it weighed a ton I guess it would not be a great idea. It would be cheaper though, even if uglier, than constructing a stand and then a tank of unusual dimensions to serve as fug/sump.

Your probably asking for trouble doing this not only is concrete very porous as stated above it has a tendency to crack over time causing it to leak which isn't going to help in this situation.
Another concern is the weight I dont know what size you are talking about but even a small stand is going to weight several hundred pounds by the time you finish if it is a fairly large stand you will not be moving it after you finish it :eek1:
Chicken wire isnt going to cut it because it is going to corrode like crazy and it isnt that strong a reinforcement to begin with, maybe epoxy coated rebar or stainless rod would work better in this application. Whatever you use would need to be structural in nature especially if you are going to add a heavy top load to it. Unless you are an engineer or have access to one, or you seriously over build it (defeating the purpose because or cost and weight) I think you are asking for trouble. Just My Opinion mind you.

Now if you are looking to do this with less weight, the rock like look and a whole lot less problems you migkt consider building a frame of wood (standard 2x4 and plywood type deal) build a wooden sump/fuge in the base and coat everything with a fast set concrete shell or aragonite mix so it looks like rock. Then seal the fuge with some type of epoxy or something like sanitred or even a pond liner.
HTH
Robert

 

[goldmaniac]

cayars,

thanks for the suggestion, but I tried this and found problems. The salt never really truly dried out after soaking. I waited a period of weeks, but salt tends to absorb moisture (ever notice rice or pasta in salt shakers?) and once it's under water, it really holds on to the h20.

It would also tend to melt together, and make a clumps, that would have to be broken apart manually.

Your idea is sound; but it's not (in my experience, at least) a simple solution. The salt would have to be spread out in a single layer to dry over a period of weeks, and even at that point, I was uncomfortable adding it to cement. there was just still too much water on/in the salt than what i preferrerd. Remember, we're adding this salt to a cement mixture, any wetness from the salt that goes into the cement is actually salt water, not just water, and I'd be concerned with weakening the mmlr.

I found the best solution was lying (laying?) the 40 lb bags of Mortons water softener salt on my garage floor and getting major frustrations out with a 6 foot piece of two-by-four. ;-)

Running the bags over with my car didn't work, either. heh.

G.

 

[badfish03]

Sorry in my haste to answer I did not read it closely enough to catch the reference to the plywood. Just so you know this is what I plan on doing to my setup.
I'm planning on building a false wall in my game room about 10' long 9' foot tall and 24" wide that will contain my 100 gallon tank, the fuge underneath built into the stand, a header tank/fuge above and all equipment enclosed out of sight.

 

[mr.wilson]

mmm55645,

We discussed concrete stands in this thread, half way down the page.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=993625&perpage=25&pagenumber=6

I would line the plywood with concrete backer board (the stuff you use behind kitchen back-splashes and ceramic shower stalls), then coat it with a water-proof cement.

It won't come out any cheaper than glass or acrylic, and it's a lot of work, but it's definitely DIY.

 

[badfish03]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10747792#post10747792 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer


So let's assume I have a plan that will work for the upperworks of the tank. I need to figure out the best possible solution for the floor.

I was thinking maybe doing layers - thin 1/2" layers alternating between really dense rock, and super porous rock, several layers of each. Even thought of making a layer of sand in there somewhere. Wondering if I should leave space underneath the floor, or do it solid.
Still wondering about thickness too.

Idea's?

I think the sand sandwich might have possibilities personally I would use a porous mix as the outside layer but I think you may be entering uncharted territory. :lol:

 

[Scoobaman17]

NEWBIE here, I read all about DIY ultimate rocks last night here and today ran to lowes and found that my lows only carries these two items for Portland cement and rock salt... will they still work, I can't find anything else.....

Morton white crystal water softener salt 99.5% pure salt for water softeners

Portland cement Type I/II

 

[Scoobaman17]

Nevermind the portland cement, found that it's fine, not sure about the crystal

 

[natedogg420]

I am new to RC. I just read all of this thread from the first post. I plan on making some mmlr someday soon but now I am just researching. I don't have a reef aquarium but am planning on one someday. Right now I am just researching. Keep up the good work and hopefully in a few more years I can be a lab monkey.

 

[goldmaniac]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10753699#post10753699 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Scoobaman17
NEWBIE here, I read all about DIY ultimate rocks last night here and today ran to lowes and found that my lows only carries these two items for Portland cement and rock salt... will they still work, I can't find anything else.....

Morton white crystal water softener salt 99.5% pure salt for water softeners

Portland cement Type I/II

These are the same two products that I used, and I'm happy with the results. The Morton's salt I used was the 99.5%, in the blue bag.

\ I just dumped a couple bucketloads of the stuff (MMLR) into my 120 gallon. woo hoo

 

[Insane Reefer]

Ok, I wrote Travis via PM to see what he had to say, and he asked me to post his reply for him.
Your thoughts on his thoughts are, of course, appreciated

Travis L. Stevens wrote on 09/12/2007 01:46 PM:

Insane Reefer wrote on 09/12/2007 01:22 PM:
Hey Travis. We miss you. You need to come pay some attention to the thread...
:sad2:

I know I've been trying to free up some time at home in order to read and reply from where I left off, but ever since we got the internet at home, I've been slammed with other stuff. CRASE is coming up on October 13th, so we're down to the nitty gritty of getting sponsorships, donations, etc. We're in crunch time.

Anyway, since you haven't been replying to.....here goes

Not a problem. In fact, if you don't mind, you can share what I say here and otherwise apologize to the regular DIYers that visit the thread and tell them what is going on.

Most of this was copied from the last 3 pages of the thread. .... will be permanently attached. Assume I have the top part figured out, what I'm stuck on is the "bed".

Okay. I'm listening....

I don't imagine the rock...Removal isn't going to be an option, so am not even thinking that way.

I've seen tanks with cement bottoms before. There are even a couple floating around here on Reef Central. It has been a couple years since I've seen threads about them though. Just lay the cement down on the bottom evenly, and you'll be fine. It might be worth adding some sort of inert foam, styrofoam, eggcrate, or something as a simple cushion if you plan on making it outside of the tank. I recommend making it inside the tank and Kuring it in the tank.

I am hoping to be able to create a anaerobic layer....a layer of sand in there somewhere, or using sand as an alternating layer.

Just for clarification, we're talking about a "rock" bottom and not layers of rock-making ingredients, right? No loose cement? I assume you're making a solid bottom. If that is the case, then it is going to be just like any other rock as far as filtration is concerned. Trying to do it in layers is a waste in the long run. After the first dense layer, it is sure to be anaerobic, and they don't need that large of a space. Lots of tiny spaces help to assure that the voids are anaerobic.

And how deep do you think this should be?
I'm thinking of 3 inches maybe deeper.

Though it isn't made exactly the same, it will work in a similar way as a sandbed. It will take about equal depth to reach an anaerobic state.

Wondering if I should leave space underneath the floor, or do it solid. Was also wondering about whether I should do this with something like eggcrate in the bottom, sort of like a plenum, but not sure really if that would do anything without actually hooking up tubes and the like to move water under it (and then how do you clean under that?).

I wouldn't do a plenum. I'm not saying they're bad, but they are just difficult to get setup correctly and to maintain. I would make a solid bottom.

You know infinitely more about tanks then I will ever. Was hoping maybe you would have some insight, etc. Any help would be appreciated

Thanks!

Not to be the party pooper, but there are some potentially serious flaws with your thought process, but there are ways around it.

1) I realize you want as much filtration as possible. We all do. But a rock bottom has the same downfalls as a deep sand bed, but magnified. Rock is much more easily clogged by debris than sand. To simplify this, you would need to clean the rocks often. But that then goes to #2.

2) Having removable rock bottom is rough. There are things that can get caught under them and put pressure on the glass. There are more places for dead spots and debris to build up. And so on. But, like you said, you could set something up like a plenum. But then the maintenance of it would be more trouble than it is worth. In addition, if you had to remove the rock bottom, you would nearly have to destroy the tank to get it out and stress the livestock like crazy.

My suggestion is to make the entire rock bottom relatively dense, but thin. Having a tank crash because of a "deep rock bed" crash would be devastating. Make it more aethetically than with functionality in mind. In addition, you might even make the rocks with the bottom as one (or a few) large pieces. I would also look in to Gyre Tanks.

Like I said before, I've seen tanks with solid rock bottoms, and they look nice and do well. But actually maintaining them can be a PIA without really researching what you're doing/making (which I know you are). Sit down and ask yourself questions about every step. Are you willing to keep up the maintenance on keeping debris off the entire rock bottom? Things like that.