The Ultimate DIY Rocks!

[michaelalan]

After a lot of work I found the Grace 10,000 densified micro-silica, 25# for $25 plus shipping. This is the same stuff Reefballs use. Don’t remember how much shipping was.

My first attempt was with Fast Set Quikrete and 10% micro-silica, by volume, not weight, and there was no difference in pH from the test piece.

Carlos suggested using weight over volume in another tread and that might make the difference.

Before I do another test with the densified micro-silica, I am going to do a capillary test on the some Rapid Set Quikrete (not the correct brand name) that Dr Wilson is using. If that stuff has a quick turn around as he says then I’ve found my recipe. I am super busy with work right now so I would not have anything to report for a while.

 

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10541907#post10541907 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by michaelalan


After a lot of work I found the Grace 10,000 densified micro-silica, 25# for $25 plus shipping. This is the same stuff Reefballs use. Don’t remember how much shipping was.

Why didn't you order it from ReefBalls themselves??? They sell it and the price is $15 plus shipping...

Before I do another test with the densified micro-silica, I am going to do a capillary test on the some Rapid Set Quikrete (not the correct brand name) that Dr Wilson is using.

What is a "Capillary Test"?

 

[michaelalan]

Reefballs didn't tell me they sold it.

A capillary test is when you place a drop of water on the concrete, if it beads up, it's what proof. It the water is absorbed by the concrete and travels up (away from gravity) then it has capillary action.

 

[Neptune777]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10541879#post10541879 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
Hmmm. I would be leery - why is that so much cheaper than regular microsilica? The "sand" part makes me wonder if it is in a fine enough particle to do the same job as what is recommended.

You'd think places like ReefBalls would have been all over something like that, if it would work...

I thought the same thing so I inquired more about what it is.........turns out it is not the same stuff. So my original supply is what I am going with (Euclid brand Silica Fume).

 

[bigtex52]

Neptune,

I would be wary of the "Fumed silica". Unless they are misapplying the term to Silica Fume, I don't believe that is the product we need in this application. I have seen several places that reiterate that Fumed Silica is not Silica Fume, most recently, the link you provided at Berkeley regarding Silica Fume. Just a heads up...

 

[bigtex52]

Oops, looks like you discovered that before my post. Sorry.

 

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10542129#post10542129 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by michaelalan
Reefballs didn't tell me they sold it.

LOL, Typical.
http://www.reefball.com/pricing.htm
Halfway down the page, under "Additives" - thaough have fun with their order form - I think the person who made it must have been on acid or something. Maybe it makes more sense when you print it...

A capillary test is when you place a drop of water on the concrete, if it beads up, it's what proof. It the water is absorbed by the concrete and travels up (away from gravity) then it has capillary action.

Ok, you mean "waterproof"? I don't get "travels up". The only way I can think that water would travel "up" in this application would be if you held the rock up and put the water on the bottom of the rock?

I think I understand what you are saying, just trying to clarify.

And in all my time researching cement (last 6 months), I've never seen anything about this. So I just googled it - and now I know why I've not noticed it before - it is typically a "construction" type of test, and I was delving more into chemistry.
It does support what I was trying to say on page 12 of this split though:

Polymer and epoxy fortified cements (and one would assume grouts too) tend to fall in the "waterproof" category - this doesn't mean it won't work (especially when aggregates other than sand are used), it just means that the cement itself won't tend to absorb water like traditional portland does (you know, like when it rains and the sidewalks turn dark and stay that way for a while - that is the cement absorbing the rain and holding it for a while). I think that absorption factor is part of the key to rock with high biological filtration capacity. I've not seen anything to substantiate this either way, but it is my opinion that the waterproof cements will work for biological filtration, but not nearly as well as the non-fortified portland does.

 

[mr.wilson]

All of the cement mixes I have used, including the ones intended to be used without aggregate as a water-proofing agent, have absorbed water in a capillary manner, as stated in my previous post.

Just to clarify for those that missed it, I'm currently using a Canadian product called Swift Patch by a company called Bomix. It's an aggregate-free, fast setting mix that offers everything I had with Quikwall or Water Stop except it's got a larger pore matrix, and is thus not waterproof.

The mix I currently use absorbs water faster than the others I have used in the past. Smaller pores may be able to facilitate the capillary action better than rock with larger ones, as gravity is greater with a wider column of water.

Bomix sells a calcite version of Southdown's playsand. The subject of aggregates was discussed in this thread if anyone is interested. There's lots of info on what and where to get. http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1065896&perpage=25&pagenumber=9

The white glue concrete bonding agent works well for applying new concrete over old, but it's water soluble. After a few days it softens up and peels of the glass, when I've used it on walls. It floats around the tank for weeks and feels like teflon tape.

If you want the cheapest option for commercially produced rock, and your content with using media other than aragonite, you can buy limestone rocks from a quarry and coat them with your own concrete treatment to give it more shape. It's the loose stuff they get from blasting. It sells for $25.00 a ton ($0.01 /lb) and you can get fine, crusher run (mixed size), 3/4", river rock (smooth pebbles), and "rip-rap" (6"-24" rocks). They can give you a bioassay on the rocks to establish if they are metallic or have any other undesirables (nitrate, phosphate, soluble silicate, sulfur etc.). The stuff around here is high in magnesium and is classified as dolostone.

Here's a rock I had lying around. It's about 10" in diameter. I found a US dime to show the pore size.

Here are some more pictures of live rock cores. The pores are clearly smaller than that of the limestone and concrete products. Sorry, no macro lens.

 

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10545058#post10545058 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mr.wilson

Bomix sells a calcite version of Southdown's playsand.

Hmm. Again, Bomix is a canadian product, and not seen here in the US much, if at all...
And if I read that thread correctly, even Bomix doesn't have it listed on their site anymore?
And I don't see in the thread where anyone has actually gotten any recently, except the one guy who got what I am assuming is CC Chicken Grit at the feed store...

If you want the cheapest option for commercially produced rock, and your content with using media other than aragonite, you can buy limestone rocks from a quarry and coat them with your own concrete treatment to give it more shape.

The piece to the right - the bright white piece is a sample of our local limestone. Our local limestone is dense and completely solid, as well as highly crystalline - I do not think this would make it good for filtration at all. Some limestone will be acceptable, but not something that most of us will have a good, porous source for...

 

[mr.wilson]

Raaden in the greenhouse thread found all kinds of suppliers of calcite. I believe he listed some in the thread, if not you could PM him. The stuff he's going to use is sold by the skid, which I think is 65 bags +-. I believe it was through an agricultural supplier.

I recommended the limestone rock for the people that were happy with silica products. I would only use it myself for very large tanks and in conjunction with live rock.

I'm going to be using some concrete blocks as a base for an upcoming project. It's a 6' x 6' cylinder that cannot be aquascaped by conventional methods.

 

[Insane Reefer]

I'll have to look again, but if it only available by the pallet, that doesn't really help the hobbyist.

I'm going to be using some concrete blocks as a base for an upcoming project. It's a 6' x 6' cylinder that cannot be aquascaped by conventional methods.

I don't know - a 6ft cylinder might look really cool with a single 5ft pillar going up the center...

 

[Izshocker]

Tried doing a second batch again tonight, actually it's just one rock.

Got the mix alot more crumbly then wet, afraid that 2 salt: 1 cement is to much salt. It looks like this thing will just fall apart. I also used salt as my mold material this time, I see what you guys mean about sand being stuck on the rock looking bad.

Here's a close up shot of the rock.

 

[mr.wilson]

Lookin' a lot better. It doesn't look like a cow left that one in the snow.

The good thing is we've all gone through these trials and at least it's cheap. See which formula works best for you. By the time you do your last rock you'll be a master at it.

 

[badfish03]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10541864#post10541864 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
Wouldn't the glue result in a more waterproof mix?

No not necessarily you would not be adding enough to make it more waterproof it just makes the concrete adhere to itself much better especially after it has setup.
This glue may actually be very similar to regular white glue it smells and acts the same it is not waterproof.

Robert

 

[mr.wilson]

It looks like white glue, it smells like white glue, it feels like white glue, and the instructions advise that it can also be used as...you guessed it, white glue.

White glue sold as "white glue" is much cheaper than white glue sold as a cement bonding agent. If you want it to work on PVC plumbing, glass or acrylic, then use yellow carpenters glue instead, as it's more water resistant.

It quickly blends in with the cement mix and does not act as a barrier (water-proofing agent).

Wetting the old cement surface and tapering/feathering the new coating will also aid in getting a successful bond.

 

[Insane Reefer]

I get it
I was just thinking more along the lines of something like carpenter's glue - which dries hard and shiny and is usually moisture proof.
Not really sure what the point of using glue, in this situation, would be, if the glue "goes away"...

 

[badfish03]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10552111#post10552111 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
I get it
I was just thinking more along the lines of something like carpenter's glue - which dries hard and shiny and is usually moisture proof.
Not really sure what the point of using glue, in this situation, would be, if the glue "goes away"...

It allows the two surfaces to hold together better so that the chemical/physical reaction of the hardening concrete has a better chance of working correctly to fuse the two pieces together.

 

[Insane Reefer]

Hmmm. I must have missed something...

Let's pretend that this is the first time someone is posting about glue - and maybe give a how, when, where and why something like this might be used - because, I have to admit, I am stumped...

 

[mosthated00]

I have some rock i made back when this thread was still on its first split, and i have a simple question, If i put this homemade rock in my refugium which i just got up and running, it has about a 6" sand bed but like i said it is new, will the rock become live by itself? over time? Or do i have to put some real live rock in with it to get it going?

 

[Insane Reefer]

Welcome to the Thread, mosthated00!

If you throw a piece of shrimp or fish in, or a small amount of ammonia into the system, the rock will become "live" on it's own after a few weeks. However, the only thing that will be "live" about it is bacteria and algae - that sort of thing - you will not get any higher life where there is no life to begin with.
You won't get 'pods, or worms without putting some in.

Can we see some pictures?