The Ultimate DIY Rocks!
- Thread starter JohnL
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Good point on the starting bacteria Mr. Wilson. You were looking at it from the standpoint of someone just getting started and I was thinking of people using it to add to their systems. I myself wouldn't use all man-made rock in my tank. I like diversity and have rock from all over the world including my back yard. 
Now who could that person be mentioned from NJReefers? I here he's full of it and doesn't know what he's talking about.
Quartz/Silica sand is pretty common all over the world and is naturally found there. Much of it comes from rivers and streams inland but also from the ocean itself. Of course I'd think this is better then some of the stuff we buy in bags because it won't have other minerals in it.
I agree phosphates and silicates are very similar in a lot of ways but find phosphates tougher to deal with for most people. One main reason is that you can have algae in the water pulling the phosphates out as fast as they can use it and tests normally return zero. Silicates don't usually test out this way. You can get a pretty good indication of your levels with a Hach test kit (Salifert is decent too but hard to use) and know what your "true" levels are. You tend to not run into the same ZERO problem as with phosphates.
One nice things is that most of the phosphate removers on the market like phosban remove silica as well as phosphates. Actually ferric oxide was first used to remove silica but was found to also remove phosphates.
Carlo
PS Personal opinion but I don't put much faith in Dr. Rons stuff without lots of backup information. He tends to be wrong a lot.
Now who could that person be mentioned from NJReefers? I here he's full of it and doesn't know what he's talking about.
Quartz/Silica sand is pretty common all over the world and is naturally found there. Much of it comes from rivers and streams inland but also from the ocean itself. Of course I'd think this is better then some of the stuff we buy in bags because it won't have other minerals in it.
I agree phosphates and silicates are very similar in a lot of ways but find phosphates tougher to deal with for most people. One main reason is that you can have algae in the water pulling the phosphates out as fast as they can use it and tests normally return zero. Silicates don't usually test out this way. You can get a pretty good indication of your levels with a Hach test kit (Salifert is decent too but hard to use) and know what your "true" levels are. You tend to not run into the same ZERO problem as with phosphates.
One nice things is that most of the phosphate removers on the market like phosban remove silica as well as phosphates. Actually ferric oxide was first used to remove silica but was found to also remove phosphates.
Carlo
PS Personal opinion but I don't put much faith in Dr. Rons stuff without lots of backup information. He tends to be wrong a lot.
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10593812#post10593812 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Neptune777
I will gladly post a picture and I have in the past. I'm not exactly sure what your motivation here is Mr. Wilson but you have a distinct tendancy to argue against mainstream ideologies and with points that make no sense at all.
Example: "Ammonia is unlikely to be a problem after the first month, but high nitrite levels will stress fish and cause ich for at least three months"What??? Ich is not caused by Nitrites or stress...it is a parasitic organism with a very well documented life cycle that is either present in your system at all times, or it is not. It doesn't majically manifest itself when the fish is stressed.
"Using fish to establish the nitrogen cycle is very slow and costly, as stressed fish get sick".....I said fish poo as an example, and does not cause stress if you stock light to start. Heck use any material that will decay and cause ammonia to be present.....
I'm done debating the use of silica sand as it HAS been well documented to not be a major concern in the captive reef.
Can we get back on the discussion of making rocks?
First of all, my comments are not directed toward anyones set-up in particular, and I'm not playing the devils advocate here for entertainment value. If someone reading can learn from other opinions and information, they can make an educated decision on the matter.
The subject certainly cannot be adequately dealt with if we only hear one side of the debate, and I'm neither capable of accurately covering the topic, nor permitted to do so, as it seems. The relatively small number of posters in this thread, don't accurately represent the readers viewing the discussion. Any information that I try to pass on is with them in mind, and not the handful of usual suspects we see posting here.
I'm not sure which "mainstream ideologies" you are referring to. My opinions fall in line with scientific and anecdotal evidence. If you're referring to the use of perlite, I presented a number of fact-based points, and no information to counter this. The use of perlite is by no means a mainstream practice that has been accepted in the reef keeping hobby. If you're referring to my belief that calcium doesn't cause nuisance algae to grow, I stand by that belief as well. I also maintain my belief that cement will not draw calcium out of the water as it hydrates.
Many readers will make their decisions based on status quo, rather than fact-based evidence presented. A cheap alternative, in this case silica sand, makes people want to believe it can work. They will see a TOTM and assume they can get there through these means.
The value of materials used in the production of rocks is at the heart of the issue. Turning a blind eye to the subject after being subjected to just a couple of posts in an epic thread, certainly won't hurt.
I see pictures of aquariums in the forums and in the TOTM all the time. I haven't seen any of tanks with silica sand or rock. I hear claims that it can be done, but if an explanation of how it's possible cannot be presented, I have to see it to believe it.
I stand by my point with regard to the cause and effect of elevated nitrite levels, stress and ich. I don't think I need to link evidence of a correlation between stress and disease. Fish are unable to maintain their slime coat and production of interferon and other immune system agents when stressed. Ich parasites are almost always present in some stage of its' life cycle in our tanks. It can live on a secondary invertebrate host and lay dormant for many months. A healthy system will not allow the parasite to manifest in fish tissue. If the fish does get sick, it will be able to heal itself with good water quality.
The purpose of dosing ammonia or sodium nitrite vs. "fish poo" is you can cut the time it takes to establish a tank considerably without risking fish and invertebrate health. Ammonia can be measured, increased to match a heavy bioload, and monitored to measure the capacity of biological filtration.
Chemically cycling a tank fell out of fashion with the advent of live rock. If we are not using live rock, we need to revisit these practices, or use live rock or sand in our systems, at least for the first few months.
I'll leave the discussion at that. If anyone wants to read about the buffering capacity of aragonite, this is just one place to look. http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/7/aafeature
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
Maybe we should add ferric oxide to the recipe with the money left over from the silica savings.
In the scientific community, individuals represent just one opinion, with many other equally valid scientists differing from this. For some reason, the information coming from people who study the science of aquariums is viewed as gospel. If you challenge these opinions, you are viewed as a heretic.
Amen to that!
Speaking of "making rock" I pulled a bone-head maneuver. I unloaded 5 larges bags of white Portland cement and put them under an awning yesterday next to my grill. After a couple of drinks last night I hit the button to retract the awning to find 500 lbs of wet cement this morning.
Hopefully the 3 bags in the middle are ok. I "knew" I should have put them in the shed but was feeling lazy! I didn't really feel like making any rock this week anyway.
Carlo
Speaking of "making rock" I pulled a bone-head maneuver. I unloaded 5 larges bags of white Portland cement and put them under an awning yesterday next to my grill. After a couple of drinks last night I hit the button to retract the awning to find 500 lbs of wet cement this morning.
Hopefully the 3 bags in the middle are ok. I "knew" I should have put them in the shed but was feeling lazy! I didn't really feel like making any rock this week anyway.
Carlo
jasonh
New member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10595102#post10595102 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cayars
Amen to that!
Speaking of "making rock" I pulled a bone-head maneuver. I unloaded 5 larges bags of white Portland cement and put them under an awning yesterday next to my grill. After a couple of drinks last night I hit the button to retract the awning to find 500 lbs of wet cement this morning.
Hopefully the 3 bags in the middle are ok. I "knew" I should have put them in the shed but was feeling lazy! I didn't really feel like making any rock this week anyway.
Carlo
ouch. Sounds like something I would do, lol.
I'm paranoid now though, so all my stuff is in a 57gal rubbermaid, except the perlite because the bag is so big. Once I start casting a lot of rock, that'll change though. No idea where I'm going to put all this stuff, my balcony is tiny
Insane Reefer
New member
Anyone using a pre-mixed (bag) cement to make their rocks needs to just step back and think for a minute.
Pre-mixed cements and grouts/mortars already contain sand and do you really think they contain calcium based sand? No, they contain silica based sand.
What? Where on earth did you come up with that?
http://geology.wr.usgs.gov/parks/coast/beach/index.html
This link is sponsored by the US Parks division, and is all about the sands of beaches. According to them, most beaches are made of silica sand, but of course, they may be wrong...
Pre-mixed cements and grouts/mortars already contain sand and do you really think they contain calcium based sand? No, they contain silica based sand.
What? Where on earth did you come up with that?
http://geology.wr.usgs.gov/parks/coast/beach/index.html
This link is sponsored by the US Parks division, and is all about the sands of beaches. According to them, most beaches are made of silica sand, but of course, they may be wrong...
jasonh
New member
Does anyone have a silicate test handy and some spare time? I've come up with a test I'd like to perform, but don't have a test kit, nor the space for extra buckets laying around (they are scraping paint/repainting the building for the next couple weeks, so I have to keep as much crap as possible off my balcony).
Anyway, here's just something quick I thought of:
Grab 4 buckets. These could be 1-2 gal. Fill one with just water...lets say 1 gal. This will be the control. Fill the next with 1 cups of silica sand, and 1 gal of water. For the next, mix up a batch of cement containing 1 cup portland, 1 cup silica sand, 1 cup whatever else (OS maybe). Form this into a generic ovalish rock shape, and let cure (either by baking or whatever you prefer - baking would be quickest if you don't have quick setting concrete). After curing, place this rock in the bucket with 1 gal of water. For the last bucket, make an identical batch of cement, substituting the silica sand with something else - more OS, aragonite sand, whatever (as long as there is no silica in it). Cure this exactly the same as the first.
Take silicate readings every day or two on all 4 buckets, and compare numbers. This should at least give us a nice look at what effects this cheaper and more readily available aggregate would have on our tanks. My guess would be that significantly less silicates would be available when used in the rock than when just dumped into the bucket.
If nobody has any interest in this, no biggie, I'll just end up doing it when time and space permits This is something I am personally very curious about.
Anyway, here's just something quick I thought of:
Grab 4 buckets. These could be 1-2 gal. Fill one with just water...lets say 1 gal. This will be the control. Fill the next with 1 cups of silica sand, and 1 gal of water. For the next, mix up a batch of cement containing 1 cup portland, 1 cup silica sand, 1 cup whatever else (OS maybe). Form this into a generic ovalish rock shape, and let cure (either by baking or whatever you prefer - baking would be quickest if you don't have quick setting concrete). After curing, place this rock in the bucket with 1 gal of water. For the last bucket, make an identical batch of cement, substituting the silica sand with something else - more OS, aragonite sand, whatever (as long as there is no silica in it). Cure this exactly the same as the first.
Take silicate readings every day or two on all 4 buckets, and compare numbers. This should at least give us a nice look at what effects this cheaper and more readily available aggregate would have on our tanks. My guess would be that significantly less silicates would be available when used in the rock than when just dumped into the bucket.
If nobody has any interest in this, no biggie, I'll just end up doing it when time and space permits
This is something I am personally very curious about.
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
They also mention that tropical beaches (Florida) have calcium carbonate-based sand. The silica beaches are up north where there are no coral reefs to influence the beach sand.
To the best of my knowledge, the beaches of Florida are comprised mostly of algae hash (calcareous algae skeletons like halimeda) that have washed ashore.
This sand is rich in phosphates and is not typical of reef sand.
burblerboy
New member
I don't know about the whole state, but all the beaches in S. Fla. are dredged offshore and pumped in. All of Miami Beach is man made over the last 40 years. I just went to a turtle release and got educated on this as part of the mandatory presentation to be part of the release. It was so COOL to see these little guys. Sorry for getting a little off topic.
Rhodophyta
New member
Looks like you made some rocks anyway, unfortunately in the shapes of large bags of cement.<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10595102#post10595102 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cayars
Amen to that!
Speaking of "making rock" I pulled a bone-head maneuver. I unloaded 5 larges bags of white Portland cement and put them under an awning yesterday next to my grill. After a couple of drinks last night I hit the button to retract the awning to find 500 lbs of wet cement this morning.
Hopefully the 3 bags in the middle are ok. I "knew" I should have put them in the shed but was feeling lazy! I didn't really feel like making any rock this week anyway.
Carlo
michaelalan
New member
sulfur to lower pH?
sulfur to lower pH?
One thing that I have been thinking about as far as lowing pH is adding Sulfur to the cement mix. Sulfur lowers pH and when used like a calcium reactor it reduces nitrates. Nurseries sell it for lowering the pH in soil. According to the instructions for the soil applications sulfur gets used up, probably thru dissolving into water and being carried away.
The implications of this is that the sulfur would disappear from the rock leaving the holes we all covet from the use of salt.
The unknown is that that cement hydration is a chemical reaction and throwing large amounts of sulfur into the reaction could cause fumes and potential health problems.
Insane, can you pose this question to your cement experts?
sulfur to lower pH?
One thing that I have been thinking about as far as lowing pH is adding Sulfur to the cement mix. Sulfur lowers pH and when used like a calcium reactor it reduces nitrates. Nurseries sell it for lowering the pH in soil. According to the instructions for the soil applications sulfur gets used up, probably thru dissolving into water and being carried away.
The implications of this is that the sulfur would disappear from the rock leaving the holes we all covet from the use of salt.
The unknown is that that cement hydration is a chemical reaction and throwing large amounts of sulfur into the reaction could cause fumes and potential health problems.
Insane, can you pose this question to your cement experts?
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
On the subject of sulfur reactors...the guy in the third post in this thread seems to know what he's talking about.
http://www.njreefers.org/joomla/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=4537.15
http://www.njreefers.org/joomla/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=4537.15
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10609407#post10609407 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mr.wilson
On the subject of sulfur reactors...the guy in the third post in this thread seems to know what he's talking about.
http://www.njreefers.org/joomla/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=4537.15
Yep, been using them for many years to run pretty high bio-loads like 30 nice size fish in a 110. When I moved earlier this year I moved my 110 (now agressive tank) to the new house (garage) but took the fish me with in a 44 g pentagon tank at a hotel for 10 days. The 30 fish were just about bumping into each other but the nitrates were just about zero thanks to the reactors.michaelalan, Man this is to funny. After Mr. Wilson brought up the link about NJReefers a couple of days ago I had thought about trying sulfur in the mix.
I tried using "beads" (reactor beads) but they just pretty much stayed whole so that didn't work unless you like brown "marbles" in your rock. I took a trip to Agway yesterday and picked up some agricultural sulfur which is much smaller. I think this will mix better. I know I tried it previously in a reactor and it went to "mush". Hopefully this will mix well and give us good results. Time will tell.
I'll let you know the results once it stops raining and I get a chance to mix up a batch. I'm going to use straight sand and white portland for this test at a 3:1 ratio. This way it's kept basic without the other chems thrown in.
Carlo
Insane Reefer
New member
Here Michealalan.
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/7001454-claims.html
I found this with google. I was planning on writing to him later tonight or tomorrow - will ask him about this too, but I think he will probably not have much to say...
But a lot of folks are working toward something that will work:
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/7001454-claims.html
I found this with google. I was planning on writing to him later tonight or tomorrow - will ask him about this too, but I think he will probably not have much to say...
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