Insane Reefer
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I think, simply put, that it says that it makes a cement that is likely to fail.
The Ultimate DIY Rocks!
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michaelalan
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Carlos, I can't wait to hear about your results with sulfur.
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
I would guess a very small amount of sulfur would have to be used to assure it doesn't leach into the water column.
From the dissolution rate I've seen in sulfur reactors, it would dissolve within six to nine months within a rock. Nitrate will not accumulate in a new tank within that time, so it may not serve a purpose.
It might be something better left for a reactor where it can be monitored and controlled.
From the dissolution rate I've seen in sulfur reactors, it would dissolve within six to nine months within a rock. Nitrate will not accumulate in a new tank within that time, so it may not serve a purpose.
It might be something better left for a reactor where it can be monitored and controlled.
Insane Reefer
New member
I've sent an email to my guy in England about sulfur - I will report what he has to say.
What do you consider accumulation? My not quite 5 month old Biocube had Nitrates of around 60 before my last water change and adding another rock...
What do you consider accumulation? My not quite 5 month old Biocube had Nitrates of around 60 before my last water change and adding another rock...
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
Things happen much faster in a 10 gallon tank, as the bioload is greater and the addition of a single coral can adequately seed the tank with bacteria. Your system also relies more on biological filtration in the absence of protein skimming, macro algae culture, ozonation, and UV irradiation (assuming you haven't modified your system to accommodate these). Larger, more elaborate systems circumvent the nitrogen cycle to a certain extent by employing other means of assimilation, nutrient export, oxidization, and molecular absorption.
Typical stock levels in a 120-240 gallon tank over the initial months of set-up take much longer for nitrate to accumulate. A system using live rock will have an established nitrogen cycle in a relatively short period of time, but a tank using exclusively base rock will take 3 months +- for nitrate to start to accumulate, and another 3 month or so for it to reach a significant level. Nitrate reduction doesn't factor into the equation of establishing a new tank.
The value of concrete with a sulfur core would be in its' use as a reactor media, or passive media in sump. It would solve the common problem of sulfur clogging while offering clog-free buffering capacity. A cement rock with sulfur in the centre would work similar to Aqua-Medic Multiballs, only disposable.
http://www.aqua-medic.de/seawater/en/19/multiballs1/
BTW 60 mg/l is awfully high for a 10 gallon tank. Are you doing weekly water changes? Do you have detritus build-up and or a heavy bioload? Do you use carbon, ion exchange resins, or any other chemical media?
michaelalan
New member
insane - mr wilson. ya'll might want to start a new thread
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Insane Reefer
New member
A reply from Nick in England:
Insane Reefer
New member
IMO, 60 is high for any aquarium. The nitrates are due to lack of rock (I only have a few small pieces and some rubble in a rear compartment) and lack of water changes (since I had only inverts and softies I was getting lazy). And I think a sand sifting snail died and did so in the sand bed where the hermits couldn't get to it.
With the addition of Bogo, the tail spot blenny, my tank cleaning habits will get better, though he is a piggy little fish and I may now be over feeding the tank - I don't know, but it seems everything I throw in gets eaten by something, pretty quickly.
When the centerpiece is ready, I should have enough rock to handle the load.
Insane Reefer
New member
Nick had, what I believe to be, a great suggestion. I've picked up a bag $5.99 for 50#, which makes this half the price of my white cement. Would also lighten the color of grey portland, I think.
I will give it a try and post the results.
I will give it a try and post the results.
IR, what you are describing by replacing some of the cement with slaked lime is commonly known and comes prepackaged as Mason's Mix or Mason's Pre-Blend. It is simply Portland and Slaked lime premixed. Type S is probably what you want as it has a higher compressive strength than Type N ( which has a medium compressive strength). HD or Lowes probably carry it as well as all masonry supplies. Don't confuse it with Mortar Mix though, as that has the sand added.
Insane Reefer
New member
Gotcha, Bigtex - thanks for looking out for me 
This is what I have gotten:
http://www.westernlime.com/pdfs/TYPESHYDLIMEBROCHURE.pdf
http://www.westernlime.com/pdfs/CHEMANALDOLHYD.pdf
http://www.westernlime.com/pdfs/MSDSMiracle.pdf
This company also makes a colored Mason blend - claims 250 colors, but only shows a few. Have a nice pink...
http://www.westernlime.com/products.html#m5
Wonder if my masonry place would order in a sample bag? It sounds like a basic blend of portland and lime - it mentions "when sand is added" or something to that effect, so am thinking that it contains no sand, so I could use my chick grit...
This is what I have gotten:
http://www.westernlime.com/pdfs/TYPESHYDLIMEBROCHURE.pdf
http://www.westernlime.com/pdfs/CHEMANALDOLHYD.pdf
http://www.westernlime.com/pdfs/MSDSMiracle.pdf
This company also makes a colored Mason blend - claims 250 colors, but only shows a few. Have a nice pink...
http://www.westernlime.com/products.html#m5
Wonder if my masonry place would order in a sample bag? It sounds like a basic blend of portland and lime - it mentions "when sand is added" or something to that effect, so am thinking that it contains no sand, so I could use my chick grit...
Insane Reefer
New member
LOL
ok I started reading this from page 1 got to about page 6 and really didnt want to read the rest... so i have some Q's for Insane reefer
1. since page 8 did you find any new ways (perlite, concrete, salt)
2. are there any new guides to the new rock
3.i'll ask more after theses are answered
1. since page 8 did you find any new ways (perlite, concrete, salt)
2. are there any new guides to the new rock
3.i'll ask more after theses are answered
Travis L. Stevens
Active member
Huh? What's this?! The Trav is back!!! I'm finally online at home. Now, I have about 41 pages to read and get caught up on! I've got my work cut out for me.
Insane Reefer
New member
Welcome to the thread, ACB
Honestly, I don't keep track of what happens where on the thread, but I can tell you that perlite is really cool, makes light-weight rock and is cheap. Based on a suggestion by a guy I found in England (director of a microscopy firm), today I made 3 test rocks with Lime and Cement, one at 10% cement to 90% lime, one 30% cement to 70% lime and one 50-50% - the idea is to minimize the pH, heavy metals and to end up with a rock that has more calcium content then rock made with pure portland. Since I'm doing these traditionally (no jiffy rock), it will be 2-4 weeks before I have any solid data on this to post. Salt works fine, at least on the short term - it is possible that with both the salt rock and the jiffy rock, that problems with cracking may develop in the long term - we have done all the testing we can, at this point it is just a "see what happens" game. Chances are good, and two "pro's" agree, that because of the way we cast our rocks (light and porous), that this sort of failure is unlikely, but it is something to be aware of, none the less.
We are experimenting with calcium chloride and micro-silica, to see if we can reproduce Cayars results, if so, then there will be a easier way to make rock quickly, and one that is accepted by cement pro's
Neptune and Michealalan are the first two to try it so far - Michaelalan reported no difference with micro-silica or without, Neptune has yet to report on his experiments.
There are no changes to the Jiffy Rock method - everyone but one person who tried it got results as I did, a pH in the 9 range, within a week (well and one person couldn't find a pH test, so don't know about them). I plan on trying a BBQ method (temporary rock sauna) for doing the Jiffy Rock, something that will be easier for others to do, and less possibility of long range rock failure. If the BBQ works, I will then refine that so I can scrap the BBQ itself and convert it to electric for producing rock on a larger scale.
The idea is simple, fire up the grill, use either a metal trashcan or a really large metal pot, and make a raised area in the bottom (so you can put water in, and the rock is above this) - couple of bricks would accomplish this in the trashcan, I think, or a cheap fan style steamer basket for the pot. But I think a pot is too small to make a full batch of rock, so spring for a small aluminum can. Once the grill is going, add water, and carefully add rock. Be careful not to tip it over. Once your rock is in, I think a towel or burlap should be placed over the top of the can, then put the lid on. This is something I learned when I learned to make exotic rices like balsamic or jasmine - rice doesn't cook fluffy in a pan with a poorly fitting lid, so you place a washcloth or towel on the top before the lid and you get fluffy rice almost every time.
Keep it going for 4-6 hours and then allow it to cool.
If you want the full write-up for the Jiffy Rock, send me a PM with an email addy and I will send you the word doc. I promise to get a site up for it soon. I have actually been working on it a little bit.
If you look back a little ways, within the last 6 or 7 I think, there is a "Super Long Post" - if you haven't read that, please do - I think most of your questions will be answered in it.
Sorry if I rambled - we broached a carboy of new mead this afternoon, and I'm a few sheets to the wind, lol ~
I don't drink very often, and it doesn't take much with mead...
Speaking of, I think my glass is empty
HTH
Honestly, I don't keep track of what happens where on the thread, but I can tell you that perlite is really cool, makes light-weight rock and is cheap. Based on a suggestion by a guy I found in England (director of a microscopy firm), today I made 3 test rocks with Lime and Cement, one at 10% cement to 90% lime, one 30% cement to 70% lime and one 50-50% - the idea is to minimize the pH, heavy metals and to end up with a rock that has more calcium content then rock made with pure portland. Since I'm doing these traditionally (no jiffy rock), it will be 2-4 weeks before I have any solid data on this to post. Salt works fine, at least on the short term - it is possible that with both the salt rock and the jiffy rock, that problems with cracking may develop in the long term - we have done all the testing we can, at this point it is just a "see what happens" game. Chances are good, and two "pro's" agree, that because of the way we cast our rocks (light and porous), that this sort of failure is unlikely, but it is something to be aware of, none the less.
We are experimenting with calcium chloride and micro-silica, to see if we can reproduce Cayars results, if so, then there will be a easier way to make rock quickly, and one that is accepted by cement pro's
Neptune and Michealalan are the first two to try it so far - Michaelalan reported no difference with micro-silica or without, Neptune has yet to report on his experiments.
There are no changes to the Jiffy Rock method - everyone but one person who tried it got results as I did, a pH in the 9 range, within a week (well and one person couldn't find a pH test, so don't know about them). I plan on trying a BBQ method (temporary rock sauna) for doing the Jiffy Rock, something that will be easier for others to do, and less possibility of long range rock failure. If the BBQ works, I will then refine that so I can scrap the BBQ itself and convert it to electric for producing rock on a larger scale.
The idea is simple, fire up the grill, use either a metal trashcan or a really large metal pot, and make a raised area in the bottom (so you can put water in, and the rock is above this) - couple of bricks would accomplish this in the trashcan, I think, or a cheap fan style steamer basket for the pot. But I think a pot is too small to make a full batch of rock, so spring for a small aluminum can. Once the grill is going, add water, and carefully add rock. Be careful not to tip it over. Once your rock is in, I think a towel or burlap should be placed over the top of the can, then put the lid on. This is something I learned when I learned to make exotic rices like balsamic or jasmine - rice doesn't cook fluffy in a pan with a poorly fitting lid, so you place a washcloth or towel on the top before the lid and you get fluffy rice almost every time.
Keep it going for 4-6 hours and then allow it to cool.
If you want the full write-up for the Jiffy Rock, send me a PM with an email addy and I will send you the word doc. I promise to get a site up for it soon. I have actually been working on it a little bit.
If you look back a little ways, within the last 6 or 7 I think, there is a "Super Long Post" - if you haven't read that, please do - I think most of your questions will be answered in it.
Sorry if I rambled - we broached a carboy of new mead this afternoon, and I'm a few sheets to the wind, lol ~
I don't drink very often, and it doesn't take much with mead...
Speaking of, I think my glass is empty
HTH
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Insane Reefer
New member
Hey Travis
Welcome to the thread!
LOL
Welcome to the thread!
LOL
Travis L. Stevens
Active member
I feel like a newbie with all this information. I can't wait to read it all.<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10641033#post10641033 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
Hey Travis
Welcome to the thread!
LOL
Much thanks reefer, there are still some things i dont understand...the first is how to form what you want, do you lay it in salt(or sand or whatever) then form it. Also i dont know if you guys have found a way yet, but i want quicker made rock (i understand the process) but is there a way with materials to make it cure quicker....the type i was looking for is like mr willsons style. Also i took a look at the thread of finished products and it looked to me that some of the "product" looked wet in the tanks that the mix was formed over pvc or over flows. My question to you is how is this possible with the leaching of the salt, do they just wait for it to dry. also what about the leeching of the salt....do they just do water changes in the tank and waste water or has there been an easier way to to do it since i last read. One more thing, what is the estimated time for fully finished lr, again i dont now if it has changed or not
Insane Reefer
New member
Tell you what, ACB, those questions are better answered by Mr Wilson (who I believe, doesn't use salt), and maybe Neptune or Airinhere - they both make really nice pieces, and might be better able to explain the creation process.
Sunkool also posted a good video of the process of making a rock - you will have to look for it, I have no idea where it is, sorry. He uses a stickier mix then I do, but that is pretty much just preference - but the technique is the same however you make your mud...
Kuring really depends on the mud you make - heavy thick mud will make dense rock that takes longer to kure, and a dry crumbly mud will make a really porous rock that can kure really quickly. Less cement in the mix will also make rock that kures quicker. Generally speaking, figure it will take 4-6 weeks to complete a batch of rock and have it ready to use. Again, this depends on the rock you make - it could take much longer for dense rock.
Micro-silica and calcium chloride are supposed to produce rock in a very short time-frame, but no one on this thread has reported any success with that so far, other then Cayars, who uses it to produce commercial rock. If a few of us can reproduce it, that would be cool. I am buying a small amount off of Neptune to play with, and of course will post my results when I do.
Other then that, it is Jiffy Rock for quick rock.
Sunkool also posted a good video of the process of making a rock - you will have to look for it, I have no idea where it is, sorry. He uses a stickier mix then I do, but that is pretty much just preference - but the technique is the same however you make your mud...
Kuring really depends on the mud you make - heavy thick mud will make dense rock that takes longer to kure, and a dry crumbly mud will make a really porous rock that can kure really quickly. Less cement in the mix will also make rock that kures quicker. Generally speaking, figure it will take 4-6 weeks to complete a batch of rock and have it ready to use. Again, this depends on the rock you make - it could take much longer for dense rock.
Micro-silica and calcium chloride are supposed to produce rock in a very short time-frame, but no one on this thread has reported any success with that so far, other then Cayars, who uses it to produce commercial rock. If a few of us can reproduce it, that would be cool. I am buying a small amount off of Neptune to play with, and of course will post my results when I do.
Other then that, it is Jiffy Rock for quick rock.
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