The Ultimate DIY Rocks!

[pdhenderson]

I finally have a pic of my rocks, I will be starting the rear wall next week or so after I have it drilled. The rocks are sitting in 5 20 l buckets right now ph is of the scale, water change due on tuesday.
I have to say thanks to those who have shared their knowledge that has helped me make these, no I just want to make more, for nothing!
I also through one pic in of the skimmer I made

 

[Ruskin]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10719823#post10719823 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mr.wilson
It's hard to find low grade (crystaline) water softener salt in Canada.

I can't find plain rock salt around here either. Try an independent discount hardware store or farm co-op.

So are you saying that the one I have pictured is no good? Thanks for the tip on where to find some.. out of curiosity, what are you using with your rocks, if you haven't found any either?

 

[Insane Reefer]

Deep Cement Bed?

Deep Cement Bed?

Hey
Wanted to ask.

I am getting tired of the whole sandbed thing, and am getting ready to setup a 20G long, and have been thinking of a "deep cement bed", and wanted to get thoughts on it. I'm planning a built in refugium and and overflow, and all rock will be permanently attached.

Wanted to get the thoughts of people on this, in particular, Mr Wilson, Cayars and Travis.

Thanks!

 

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10710979#post10710979 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jasonh
Also, does anyone know a good way to extend the cure time of rapid-setting cement without significantly extending the cure time?

If you mean prolonging the set time, then keeping it moving will help for a little, and adding a teaspoon of water now and again might also help while stirring it up. Having two people makes this easier - I recruited my hubby to stir when I was using the Calcium Chloride which accelerates the set time, and by stirring it frequently and adding a few drops of water, I was able to do about 25lbs at a time, with sculpted shapes...

 

[mr.wilson]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10720293#post10720293 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Ruskin
So are you saying that the one I have pictured is no good? Thanks for the tip on where to find some.. out of curiosity, what are you using with your rocks, if you haven't found any either?

I'm not sure about the chemical make-up of the salt you have. It doesn't look like pure sodium chloride. It may or may not cause problems. It's food grade, so it certainly isn't toxic.

The problem with reconstituted salt is it doesn't leave natural looking void spaces like you get with crystals. You end up with artificial looking ovals.

I don't use salt. I form it by hand and use screw drivers, and lag bolts etc. to make holes where I want them.

 

[mr.wilson]

Re: Deep Cement Bed?

Re: Deep Cement Bed?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10721411#post10721411 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
Hey
Wanted to ask.

I am getting tired of the whole sandbed thing, and am getting ready to setup a 20G long, and have been thinking of a "deep cement bed", and wanted to get thoughts on it. I'm planning a built in refugium and and overflow, and all rock will be permanently attached.

Wanted to get the thoughts of people on this, in particular, Mr Wilson, Cayars and Travis.

Thanks!

I treat small tanks entirely different than big ones. For a 20 gallon tank, I would not use a calcium reactor, protein skimmer, sand bed, or dose chemicals. Instead I would do 25% water changes weekly, using premium salt with NSW parameters. In your case, the cost of salt will be less than the omitted equipment.

I would go with a concrete bottom, just for aesthetic reasons alone. The glass is pretty delicate on a 20 gallon, especially a mass produced tank, so affix the cement to a sheet of PVC or acrylic and drop it in place. This way there is no stress on the glass, and it's removable.

You don't get much of a viable denitrifying sand bed with a 20 gallon tank anyway, once you subtract the footprint of your rock. Robert Toonen's experiments showed that fine sand is much more efficient at reducing nitrate than rock, but the point is moot with major water changes.

 

[Insane Reefer]

Hey there, MR Wilson
I'm a big proponent of the "Kiss" rule: Keep It Simple Stupid. Though I do use supplements, and this tank, may have enough room in the back for a nano-skimmer, if I feel the need. This will be the next step for me in reef keeping - I feel ready to tackle something a bit more demanding then softies, though not sure what that might be - this will all be new to me...

I don't imagine the rock will weigh more than 50-60lbs all told (about the same as sand and rock would), as I will mainly be using perlcrete - do you think I will really need to add support? If so, I will probably do a reinforcing layer of plexi, floated on a bed of silicone - cheaper and flexible that way. I think that would work, don't you? Removal isn't going to be an option, so am not even thinking that way.

I am hoping to be able to create a anaerobic layer in the cement floor. I was thinking That if I did a really porous underlayment, covered with a heavy, dense topper, I might be able to create that - or do you think it would work better going the other way, with more porous on top and denser below? And how deep do you think this should be?

I'm thinking of 3 inches maybe deeper. Was also wondering about whether I should do this with something like eggcrate in the bottom, sort of like a plenum, but not sure really if that would do anything.

 

[cayars]

Re: Deep Cement Bed?

Re: Deep Cement Bed?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10721411#post10721411 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
Hey
Wanted to ask.

I am getting tired of the whole sandbed thing, and am getting ready to setup a 20G long, and have been thinking of a "deep cement bed", and wanted to get thoughts on it. I'm planning a built in refugium and and overflow, and all rock will be permanently attached.

Wanted to get the thoughts of people on this, in particular, Mr Wilson, Cayars and Travis.

Thanks!

I've already read Mr. Wilson's reply to this and more or less agree with the KISS theory and using water changes for this size tank.

I'm not sure however that a "Deep Cement Bed" is the answer either. I'm not really sure I'd want to answer how to set it up without knowing what you intend to use it for (IE Fish only, LPS, SPS, etc).

You mentioned a built in refugium and an overflow. How much of the 20G were you going to use for the refugium and why? If you have an overflow I'm assuming you'll also have a sump which could house the fuge so you may not need to give up display space for the fuge. <-- not a right or wrong thing, just asking.

Assuming you have an overflow and a sump. Is this a dedicated sump or would it be tied into another system with shared water?

Elaborating on this last thing a little. I've got a big system by most counts but also have around 10 tanks that are 10 or 20 gallon displays. Some are stand alone (testing and playing) while others are connected into my main system. A cheap and easy I've found to connect small systems into other larger systems is to:
1) pickup 2 Aqualifter pumps (3gph) - $12 each
2) pickup 1 electrical topoff unit OR float switch $15-$50ish

Then what I do is have one Aqualifter pump constantly pulling water out of the small tank while you use the other pump connected to the "topoff unit" (avoid over filling) to move your other system water into the small tank. A tiny restrictor on the first pump helps make sure you can't remove more water then you add.

Ideally you pull water from the small tank at the top of the tank and push the new water in lower in the tank. I like this arrangement because if the topoff pump were to fail the pump pulling water out of the small tank can't drain the tank since it's high up in the water column.

In order to use some type of method like this you do need to be able to fish 2 small airline style hoses between the systems. It's not for everyone but for those that can do it... they will have less water problems in the small tank assuming the "big" tank is stable and correctly being run.

Carlo

PS depending on head height the Aqualifter may not be a good choice and maybe a mini-jet would be better but the idea is the same 2 pumps with some type of controller to regulate water level.

 

[cayars]

Re: Re: Deep Cement Bed?

Re: Re: Deep Cement Bed?

removed

 

[Insane Reefer]

Cayars, sounds like you have something akin to what the typical LFS has. I wish I had the room and money for something like that but I do not :sad2:

Ok, a little more info.
The overflow will be internal, mainly to skim the surface of the water, run the "dirty" water through the 'Fug (filled with cheato <sp?>), and then send it through filter pad, to a pump that pushes it back out to the display. Sort of like the various 'Cubes do it.

Intake/overflow on one corner, a shallower trough like shape across the back for the 'Fug, and the return on the other end - all made into the cement surround - very little should be needed in the way of acrylic or plexi. In theory, I could make the 'fug go full height, top to bottom, and fill it with sand, but then there are the risks associated with sand, and sand critters needed to keep it healthy.

Not sure myself what I plan to do with it. As I said, I've always kept softies, but think I might be ready to spread my fins a bit a try something new. What is considered the next step in reef-keeping? That is probably the way I will go. Plus a fish or two. Really sort of would like an eel - one of those dwarf eels would be cool, but fear that that would be too heavy of a load in a 20g.

 

[cayars]

Got ya.

So basically you're thinking of a rock wall going to the fuge and I'd assume a poured rock bottom. I'm also assuming you'll try and create a couple of "boulders" directly in the tank attached to the bottom correct for some aquascaping?

That's interesting. I've not really done anything like this myself so I'm really not sure. I think I'd defer to Mr. Wilson on this one. (you won't hear me say I'm not sure very often)

Thinking out load with the right amount of rock assuming it's made like our normal rock, I don't really see a problem except for the pH issues which you're fully aware of and getting the tank cycled in the normal sense (new tank) and getting a bacteria population going.

You could also experiment with a fake sand bottom created with a wet mix on the bottom of the tank sprinkled with sand. That would give a natural sandy look but not cause normal sand problems and you could use any amount of circulation in the tank without a sand storm. Elmers glue would also work maybe even better. Just smear it on the bottom and add sand on top. After it dries flip the tank over to get the loose sand up.

Are you planning on putting the overflow/fuge on the long end (back of tank) or short end (side of tank) as normally used? I'm having trouble picturing how this would come out. If you use the side then I'd want it in a room corner and if it were the long side you'd give up to much space. I'd probably forgo doing this and just put a 10g under the tank for a sump/fuge combo with a small pump.

I'm interested in watching this progress so keep us informed.

Carlo

 

[mr.wilson]

I would still just use eggcrate to make a prefab cement substrate. There's no need to silicone it in place, as it isn't going anywhere with all that weight, and rock holding it down as well. Silicone won't harm it, it's just redundant.

The refugium should be after the mechanical prefilter, as you don't want detritus settling on the chaetomorpha. Caulerpa is more tolerant to detrital build-up, and grows much faster. The incidents of caulerpa crashes are few and far between, and very unlikely if you have a consistent 18 hour photo-period and it's harvested regularly.

For a small tank, it's usually best to grow macro-algae right in the tank, rather than in a refugium, as the macro-algae requires no refuge when there are no predators (herbivores & omnivores). In other words, You probably won't have tangs in your tank, so you don't need to segregate the algae. Dwarf angels will pick at it, but it won't get decimated.

If you don't like the look of macro-algae in the tank, then add a surface skimmer in the tank, with plastic eavestrough running the length of the tank, hanging on the back (HOT). A cheap light and powerhead can run such a system. A shallow algae tray like this is very efficient and can be configured to work as a header tank, so zooplankton can be passively fed to the tank without going through a return pump (pump display water into the trough and allow gravity to return it to the tank).

You mentioned you are tight for space, but do you have room for a header tank (refugium) above. It doesn't have to sit directly above the tank.

 

[Insane Reefer]

Good points guys Thank for the input.
I dislike algae in-tank - it gets too invasive, IMO.
Google has failed me. :sad2:
What is an "eavestrough"?

And no, no room, plus I promised the hubby no more after this one This will have to be self contained.

I will see if I can cobble a primitive drawing of what I am thinking, tomorrow.

 

[mr.wilson]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10727551#post10727551 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
Good points guys Thank for the input.
I dislike algae in-tank - it gets too invasive, IMO.
Google has failed me. :sad2:
What is an "eavestrough"?

And no, no room, plus I promised the hubby no more after this one This will have to be self contained.

I will see if I can cobble a primitive drawing of what I am thinking, tomorrow.

Sorry, it might be the (Can - US) language barrier...eh! You guys south of the 49th call them "gutters".

I saw lots of references for "eavestrough" on Google.

 

[bigtex52]

IR -They are known in this part of the world as rain gutters!

 

[Insane Reefer]

Ah. Thanks 'Tex
While I did find many references to them, it was mainly on siding and gutter sites (so I was really confused). When paired with "reef", Mr Wilsons home stomping forum came up a time or two, but mainly as mentioned equipment. Not much out there saying exactly what they where, the references I found sort of assumed you knew already...

 

[goldmaniac]

Hello everyone -
It's been a little while since I've been on this thread, but I've been making rock since April/May/June and even July. I wanted to share some pics, in order to contribute back a little more.

What I did:

March/April - I made my first couple of batches with regular 'ole grey portland cement.
The mix that I like the most, which is what I ended up using the vast majority of the time:

1 part cement
1 part sand (old Kent's BioSubstrate from my refugium)
2 parts rock salt (morton's water softener salt)

I'd make the rock in mail cartons, and let sit in salt for 3-5 days before removing and examining.

Then I placed the rock into a spare 40 gallon hex tank:

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<img src="http://www.goldmaniac.com/Pictures/fishtank/grey_mmlr_40gal.jpg" border="0" alt="">

let me make sure I'm posting pics correctly, and I'll continue.

 

[goldmaniac]

ok I think I have it now:

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<img src="http://www.goldmaniac.com/fishtank/mm_live_ock_sept_07/grey_mmlr_40gal.jpg" border="0" alt="">

 

[goldmaniac]

d'Oh

<br />
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<img src="http://www.goldmaniac.com/fishtank/mm_live_rock_sept_07/grey_mmlr_40gal.jpg" border="0" alt="">

 

[goldmaniac]

<br />
<br />
<img src="http://www.goldmaniac.com/fishtank/mm_live_rock_sept_07/grey_mmlr_in_40gal.jpg" border="0" alt="">

and

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<img src="http://www.goldmaniac.com/fishtank/mm_live_rock_sept_07/grey_rock_in40gallon.jpg" border="0" alt="">

You get to see my cluttered basement.

ANYWAY, it looks like pH = 8.2 - 8.3, after this schedule of water changes:

F 6/23
Tu 7/3
F 7/6
Tu 7/10
M 7/16
Wed 7/25
Wed 8/1
Tu 8/7
Tu 8/14
R 8/23
Su 9/2
F 9/7
Sat 9/8
Sun 9/9

and yesteday, 9/10, I took pH measurements with 3 different pH tests, Dry-tab, Salifert, and cheapie pH test strips from eBay. all say 8 - 8.3 pH.