The Ultimate DIY Rocks!

[sailfintang]

Well this is interesting about the aragocrete rocks. From what I understand thought the best information about the aragocrete rocks is from GARF. They were suppose to tbe the pioneers of the idea. I believe that Eddie Postma is the diy live rock guru please go check the link out below for the real aragocrete making.

http://garf.org/

Once there go to how to then sleect aragocrete and review the articles. I believe you shall be pleased.

 

[Barto]

reading & typing at the same time, I see that steam production is still under discussion, I will get busy on a picture of my setup.

I work with "styrofoam" type building blocks & often during the winter I have to DE-ICE things from overnight snow & hard frost, so I came up with a easy & (IMO SAFE, but I'm no engineer) way to make steam come out the end of a hose

either use an old freezer, or build a box out of exterior grade plywood, line it with 2" thick sheet "styrofoam" with a steam inlet on bottom, a thermometer that can be read from the outside & an adjustable vent on top for controlling temps

much like a meat smoker, except with rocks & steam instead of bratwurst & hickory smoke

 

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11160845#post11160845 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sailfintang
Well this is interesting about the aragocrete rocks. From what I understand thought the best information about the aragocrete rocks is from GARF.

Thanks for the post, SailFin and welcome to the thread!

A lot of people think that GARF is the pioneer of man made live rock, but in fact, man made rock goes back to at least the 1970's (One of our own RC members, PaulB made his first in the early 70's, but states that he had known of it for a while before that) -and has been being used in commercial/public aquariums for at least that long as well.

All GARF really did was codify (through some research and experimentation) what was known, or thought to be known at the time about MMLR, into a easy to use "recipe" for the hobbyist. However, it seems once they found one way to do it, all further research and experimentation stopped. I could be wrong, but it seems that way. I do include a GARF link in my "Super Long Post", to what I believe to be the best article from GARF about man made live rock - and that is one of only two such articles that I list.

This thread has sort of taken up where GARF (and others) left off. I myself have spent the last 9 months or so in cement "research" (study) - I feel that by understanding cement itself more fully than the progenitors of MMLR did, better and/or faster ways to produce MMLR can be developed. Lot's of people here have also been helpful or instrumental in new MMLR ideas, and methods.
Several trends seem to be developing from this thread (based on reports and self testing), that seem to bust a couple of MMLR myths - most notably that MMLR should be immediately placed into water, instead of allowing the cement to fully cure/harden before attempting to lower the pH. Another myth is that MMLR can't be made any quicker than the 4-8 weeks that is typical with the GARF like methods (http://www.reefrocksrus.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=6#6 Isn't this just arrogant and ignorant). The Jiffy Rock method I have developed (using the same type of process the cement block industry uses to make thousands of bricks a day and has used for more then 50 years to boot) can make rock that is kured in 7-9 days, using regular portland cement (not the fast set cements), but it isn't a practical application for most hobbyists, yet - I'm still working on a small scale, practical way for the hobbyist to do it, as well as larger scaled operations.

Don't get me wrong - GARF has done a LOT for the marine aquarium hobby, and I hope to one day emulate them to a certain degree, but I, and others, feel that there may be ways to make DIY rock that haven't been thought of yet, and I use this thread as a vehicle for my ideas and results on different idea's.

I don't think the last chapter in MMLR has been carved in stone yet

 

[sailfintang]

I totally agree with you reefer. Justy didnt see your garf link it the list sorry about that. making rock is a great thing it preserves our reefs and allows us to create our own aquascapes that we want rather than rely on live rock shipped to us at an astonomical fee. I prefer the aragonite sand in my mix and the crushed coral but the use of the crystal salt has intrigued me and i will try that in my next batch. i also like to use masonary buts to drill in addidtional holes, cave and so on. to evyone that reads this save a reef grow your own thorugh live rock cultivation and coral propagation and breeding. ANd remember enjoy it.

 

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11160879#post11160879 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BigSkyBart

I work with "styrofoam" type building blocks & often during the winter I have to DE-ICE things from overnight snow & hard frost, so I came up with a easy & (IMO SAFE, but I'm no engineer) way to make steam come out the end of a hose

either use an old freezer, or build a box out of exterior grade plywood, line it with 2" thick sheet "styrofoam" with a steam inlet on bottom, a thermometer that can be read from the outside & an adjustable vent on top for controlling temps

BSB! Welcome back! :beachbum:

I'd love to see some pictures, I'm having trouble imagining what you are describing.

It sounds like you have built a mini-sauna of sorts? That was my first thought, was to build a plywood double walled box, with expando-foam between the walls, but I think the wood would rot too quickly for it to be completely practical (and be hard to seal tightly). So my thoughts went to something like a sealed, insulated box, and I arrived at a deep freezer (or fridge I suppose). I should be able to steam at least 150lbs at a time, and probably get the freezer for free if I keep my eye out - as opposed to plywood at $25 a sheet - I never see anyone offer plywood sheets for free.

I'm still stuck a bit on the "boiler" portion. Idea's are always welcome. The best I can come up with is to either use the element from a electric grill, underneath a sealed large pot (pressure cooker?) or small metal barrel. Next thought would be an immersion heating unit directly in the water.

One a side note, if the deep freezer idea pans out, I will scale it down and try doing the same with a igloo type cooler for those at home who are just making some rock for their tank.

So yes, BSB, more info, please

 

[RandyStacyE]

I couldn’t help but notice that this thread has been split like 3-4 times. I won’t claim to have read every word

One question and I don’t know if this has been brought up or not.

Could one mix some type of potting clay mixture with real reef sand and haul their rocks to be placed in a kiln?

Besides lacking some porosity that you guys get with using some salt and the expense of the kiln time; can anyone think of why this would be a disadvantage?

I imagine that doing this would eliminate the need for the long waiting period with the PH.

I noticed that many frag plugs and frag rocks are made with this some type of potting clay and baked in a kiln so they are ready to rock immediately (no pun intended).

 

[Travis L. Stevens]

Could one mix some type of potting clay mixture with real reef sand and haul their rocks to be placed in a kiln?

It's been a long time ago, but using a kiln was suggested at one point in time. I don't remember the outcome, or what source they used, but it's in this thread somewhere. I promise

 

[Insane Reefer]

Hey Travis, rearing your head? LOL
Long time, no hear
Good to see you back.

Randy, I don't think anyone has really looked at the clay route, though as Travis says, we have talked at least twice about using a kiln in some fashion. If you decide to do so, try looking at metakaolin, it might be a good place to start.

On a side note, in my "research", I've come across the idea of firing the rocks we already make. Something I recently read leads me to believe that firing our rock at +1500°F, once thoroughly dried (see "pore water" at google - don't want to blow up), might turn the cement directly to calcium carbonate.

The university has a kiln, and I think that for a small fee I can gain access to it. It is completely impractical, but would be interesting to see if it works.

 

[Travis L. Stevens]

Hey Travis, rearing your head? LOL
Long time, no hear
Good to see you back.

Unfortunately not. I just got lucky that I could take a peek in here and found a question I could remotely help with. What was once hectic has now been blown up to utter chaos. Back to the grind stone for me *hears a whip crack in the distance* They're coming for me!

 

[Insane Reefer]

LOL.
Well, we enjoy it when you deign to visit us lowly rock makers

Since we likely won't see you again for a while, let me say "Happy Holidays!" now...

 

[RandyStacyE]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11264990#post11264990 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
Hey Travis, rearing your head? LOL
Long time, no hear
Good to see you back.

Randy, I don't think anyone has really looked at the clay route, though as Travis says, we have talked at least twice about using a kiln in some fashion. If you decide to do so, try looking at metakaolin, it might be a good place to start.

On a side note, in my "research", I've come across the idea of firing the rocks we already make. Something I recently read leads me to believe that firing our rock at +1500°F, once thoroughly dried (see "pore water" at google - don't want to blow up), might turn the cement directly to calcium carbonate.

The university has a kiln, and I think that for a small fee I can gain access to it. It is completely impractical, but would be interesting to see if it works.

Yup ... all the searching I did (throughout this LONG thread) regarding the use of a kiln was RE: cement DIY rocks. Then again I did not search the term 'ceramic' yet ... will do.

I'll look into material costs and the cost for kiln time. The main drawback to DIY rocks is all of the down time with soaking and PH mostly.

If the materials and expense is not rediculous I don't see how it would be impractical. In a way it's already been done:

 

[Insane Reefer]

Impractical in terms of most people not having access to a kiln, etc. Most people who have kilns are very, very leery of sharing them, IME, and kilns are quite expensive, not to mention potentially dangerous.

I see nothing wrong with the idea, as you say, the whole pH issue thing becomes moot. It would be interesting to see what sort of pores clay/ceramic has or can have - one of the reasons we use the cement is that it naturally mimics the texture of real live rock, providing a habitat for the bacteria. It would also be interesting to see what sorts of chemical reactions might occur when it is exposed to saltwater for long periods of time. A google search might be in order.

I think ti is an interesting idea. If you decide to try it out, please keep us informed of what you use and how it turns out.

 

[grannybj]

I was one of the ceramic people that replied to that long ago thread. Since that time, I have made some "rocks" out of ball clay and they have been in my 90 gallon tank since September 20th .My first 3 attempts ot making the rock failed . I finally thought it through and figured out my problem was not enough material to hold the rock togeather. I had been trying to make the structure too pourus. Once I melted some of the clay into a thick slurry and used that to "glue" the pieces togeather , it worked fine. I basically took marble sized pieces of the clay and dipped them in the slurry and pushed them togeather. After drying for 2 weeks to be sure there was no water trapped in the core of the structure, I fired the pieces. I have noticed a lot more green algea growth on those structures . At night , even in the beginning, I would see pods and bristle worms crawling over the rocks. I see a good bit of coraline taking residense on the structures now . I have contacted a friend that is building me some pyrimid structures out of wood so I can use them to build onto so that the pieces will have a hollow base. I sort of invision a piece with lots of shelves and holes to set in frags of zoas . I took one of the structures that I had already fired and drilled it out to hold my own zoa frags and it is known as the zoa tree. I need to go back and glue in the frag plugs as my large snails keep knocking the frag plugs out.
While you are researching the kiln fired method , look for someone with an electronic kiln. All three of mine are the old type with no temprature control , just low -medium- high . An electronic one would allow you to set the temp where you want it . you may want to research at what temp sand would melt .
I did not add anything to my clay...it was straight out of the bag .
There are companies out there marketing ceramic rock but they protect thier trade secrets with a vengence.
In researching ceramics as applied to a salt water enviroment. I could not find any info that showed ball clay would have any harmful properties . I am no chemist so I decieded the best thing was to make some rocks and put them in my own tank and just see what happened. So far so good. Other than the green algea, I see no difference. The algea may just be showing up on the ceramic pieces because they were stark white going in and the contrast is greather than the real live rock in the same tank.

 

[RandyStacyE]

grannybj, thank you VERY much for your input! I truely appreciate it. I do not know much of anything about kilns or the types of clay that exist, so it looks like I have a lot of research to look forward to

Thanks again!

 

[Insane Reefer]

Cool, someone with experience speaks.
But you've been holding out on us, GrannyBJ.
I'm glad you decided to speak up, and offer what you've learned - I think this is an intriguing idea and would be interested in hearing more (and would hate to see it dry up for lack of anyone with ceramics knowledge). Some pictures would be cool too, to see what sorts of shapes and textures you've managed to get out of it, and some shots of growth too. If you can find the time, I'd love to see what you've come up with, and I imagine Randy would too

I do know that there have been a lot of studies done on mixing cement and clay, and two types that keep cropping up are bentonite and metakaolin - not sure why, but those might be worth looking at. I've avoided them because they tend to make the cement denser, which isn't a good thing, IMO. I will throw my two cents in where I feel I can offer something, but kiln work and ceramics are outside any of my areas of interest, so I'm just going to sit back and learn something from you guys, if you will share what you learn

 

[grannybj]

this is the one I call zoa tree today and you can see all the algea that has taken hold.

This is what the same rock looked like when I first made it ..before firing

this is another rock that is in my tank but in a place that I can't get a good picture of it at present. It has the same algea and lots of bristle worms and pods . I still think the algea stands out due to the white color that it started with . I have some aragonite plugs in the tank that were white in the beginning and are now green in color too . The plugs hold frags that have been given to me recently .

this picture shows the same rock after firing..notice how white it is ...there are colored clays but I was being brave to put this stuff in my tank and found it too risky to go with colored clay .

The height of the tallest rock is about 9 inches and that was as tall as I could go without the whole thing comming apart from the weight . I think when I try this again, I will allow it to dry overnight wrapped in plastic and then build onto it and see how it works. Even the smaller ones weigh a lot for thier size. The one that is longer in length weiged in at 5 pounds dry after firing.
I have a nano tank I want to set up after christmas and I want to try building some custom rocks for it . Right now the Christmas rush is upon the ceramic part of my life so it will have to wait till that is over.
I have also made a slab with wording stamped into it that says " My Piece of the Ocean" and it is currently in my sump waiting to color up with algea to see if it will make the words stand out. I made it with a shelf on top so I could stand it in the tank and add frags to the shelf. it has only been in the sump for about 2 weeks so it too soon to tell .
In my research on ceramic rocks , the only caustion I got over and over was do not use paint . Ceramic paint or glaze that is fired contains lead and other things that I sure don't want in the tank .
I hope some of this experience helps. As I have said..I am no chemist but I am brave enough to try things that sound like they would work so I tried this . I don't think I would be brave enough to add sand and other materials to the clay and put it through my kilns though. If some one could find out about the melting point of sand I might reconsider.

 

[RandyStacyE]

Excellent pics!

I was thinking about using reef sand/crushed coral straight from the bottom of the ocean. Of course it can also be purchased.

It's kinda funny, if you watch all of the reef fish (parrot fish, trigger fish) in the wild you see that they are constantly nibbling on the reef and often ... ... taking a dump I wouldn't doubt if this is where the reef sand comes from. I woulnd't know if shells are safe inside of a kiln or not ... there will always be small shells in reef sand likely wherever it is obtained.

 

[Insane Reefer]

Hey GrannyBJ, nice job, and thanks for the pictures
That algae is nothing to worry about - that looks pretty much the same as the algae I've gotten at the start on all my rock. You are right, it looks worse then it really is, especially on the stark white surfaces. The same algae on grey rock almost isn't noticeable.

Feeling brave?
Well here are the melting points of both silica sand and CC - the CC could be gotten at a feed store as "Calcium Carbonate for Feed Mixing" ($3.50 #50) - but make sure they give you the limestone version (melting point: 950°C) and not the granite version (melting point 1700°C).
-----------------
Sand (silicon dioxide, or Quartz - stuff glass is made from) â€" Melting Point: 1723°C
Calcium Carbonate Sand â€" Melting Point: 825°C
-------------------

Shells are mostly Calcium Carbonate (CaCO3) with a few other things like potassium and magnesium, so I wouldn't worry about those.

And I don't know how salt would work, but you might be able to use salt to support the structure as you build it...
Salt (NaCl) â€" Melting point: 801°C

 

[mtbetta]

Does anyone else have problems getting coralline to grow on the rocks? I set up a 20 gallon tank about eight montths ago with about 75% rock that I made. The tank glass is absolutely covered with coralline but the rocks have very little coverage. I have to scrape coralline off the front glass weekly. The other three sides are totally covered.

 

[Insane Reefer]

Hey Mtbetta, welcome to the thread

I find that pink coralline growth can be non-existent for the first few months, but usually picks up by the 4th to 6th month. Green coralline usually starts up fairly quick, and I can have a 75% coverage of that in a few months.

As long as you can see bug and worm life in the new rock, I wouldn't start to worry - bugs wouldn't live in it if it was "bad" rock, though it may not have been quite fully kured, which could lead to the lack of growth. If it was still a little "hot" pH-wise, your system could have buffered it so you didn't show any problems, but the rock might have been too high in pH for coralline to like it much.
Just a thought, but if your system is growing coralline that well and it isn't growing on the rocks, that would be my guess.

Anyone else have thoughts?