The Ultimate DIY Rocks!

[tankslave]

Have you had good experience using stucco? I've found it makes the water very alkaline, and gave up trying to cure it (soaking out whatever it was leaching).

I've also heard that contractors wont use stucco on houses in the northwest because it doesnt do well when constantly wet... again, just what i've "heard".

I also couldnt get a mix as porous as I would like with stucco (or any concrete for that matter), aside from adding small shells, or other things that were already porous.

Probably doesn't matter too much once you have coraline all over anyways...

Looks cool though!

 

[JoelNB]

If you use IRs Old Skool + recipe, you;ll get porous rock. You need to mix it and form it as instructed. I can virtually pour water through mine like a net, yet it looks solid.

 

[mr.wilson]

Stucco is a mix of cement and plaster, and therefore is not stable in a marine environment. The cement mixes I use are quite pourous, similar to ceramic media used for biological filtration. They have silica fume to help avoid sulphate and chloride breakdown caused by exposure to saltwater. Use type 1 or 11 portland. Type V guards against chlorides, but the C3A (tri-calcium aluminate) reacts with sulphates and causes a breakdown of the cement matrix. In other words your rock will slowly crumble and fall apart.

For large aquariums made of concrete where structural integrity is paramount, I use a crystalizing agent called xypex. http://www.xypex.com/

Ornamental cement reef structures can tolerate some sulphate attack, so I don't use any crystalizing products, just silica fume. This allows the pores to remain open for marine organisms to populate.

Modern filtration methods employ UV irradiation, protein skimming, ozonation, carbon, macro algae farming, the use of filter feeding invertebrates, and ion exchange resins. Biological filtration serves a role, but is the least efficacy due to residual nitrate.

As you stated, encrustation of coraline algae and benthic invertebrates such as tube worms and tunicates will ultimately determine the composition of the rock surface.

Having lots of surface area is the key to providing sites for beneficial organisms. By creating cool branchlike shapes and covering back and side walls with a rock/cement surface, you optimize the space you have in your reef... and it looks freak'n cool

 

[mmm55645]

A local quarry has pulverized limestone for cheap prices and they have one kind that is like dust but is advertised as high calcium.

I wanted to ask if anyone knows anything about this. I am curious if it would be especially good for rocks or if it won't make any difference.


Also, who among the posters here sells rock? I have not sold any yet, although I have made a lot. I would like to hear about experiences selling rocks. Especially if you sell when both cures are complete or if you wait until the rock is covered in coralline. Do you sell your rock as live rock or base rock?


I have followed the thread but have missed sections, as it is large enough to be difficult to manage. I am also curious what methods are being used most of all. The ol skool method, the salt method, jiffy rock(if that is the right name-I mean the one with baking) or the micro silica/fast setting method. I figure enough time has passed that all have been used frequently.

One other thing, does anyone know a lot about Walt Smith rock?

 

[mr.wilson]

The greatest difficulty in selling rock is the shipping weight. If you have a large local club or friends at a few stores, you can set something up to help pay for your habit.

If you have added value like cured rock or coraline encrusted rock etc, your market will be willing to pay for the extra shipping.

I don't hear much about Walt's manmade rock in the trade. Mostly due to the high shipping cost. Perhaps if he produced it in America, it would be a more viable option. He probably offers it now to prepare for the day when live rock collection is completely banned or to fill some kind of quota (replenish what he takes from the sea).

 

[mmm55645]

There are LFS within the area so I don't have to worry as much about shipping, and if I was to do it on a large scale, hypothetically, I would deliver the rocks myself.

 

[superscenic]

Thanks Insane Reefer

Thanks Insane Reefer

This is to say Thank you!!!!!!!!!!

...Insane reefer, for all the generous Help and detailed advice.

You are a hero!

I'm Certain a HUGE, EPIC ball of Good Karma is on its way to you right now.

My experiments are working well and your recipe is great.

Lets all give a Big round of applause and a firm slap on the back for the pioneer of rock generosity.

Well Done!!
THANK YOU!!!!

 

[JoelNB]

Thank You Insane Reefer.

Your hard work and dedication has helped me. You are the champion of this thread and a legend on this forum.

 

[2_zoa]

mr.wilson,

That looks like some project you got going there. I am not sure how to say that it looks freaking awsome.

Very nice work.

Also your inbox is full.

 

[Electrobes]

Thanks Insane Reefer for your work!

Mr. Wilson - Which product from Xypex do you use and how is it applied? I've never seen that before

 

[mr.wilson]

Xypex has a few specialized products, but I use the concentrate and standard version. One is thicker primer and sealer that gives true waterproofing and resistance to salt corrosion, and the other is a finishing coat that can be used to make the surface stronger or to act as a water resistant (not waterproof) agent.

The product crystalizes as it cures. You wet the surface three times a day to allow the Xypex to fill the holes through a capillary action. It's a chemical reaction, not a simple coating of paint. It gets hot as it hydrates like many fast setting cement mixtures. You only have about an hour of pot life (before it hardens in the bucket). It goes on thick and looks like very watery cement. Brushing it on is the best method, but you can use a sprayer. For large pools you can mop it on. Coverage is pretty thick with the concentrate, so larger pores are easily filled.

The concentrate dries a grey portland colour, and the standard (finishing/hardener) mix dries a lighter grey with a slight green shade. The price is reasonable and it gives a permanent waterproof seal with protection against sulphide and chloride attack.

As I stated earlier, if you are making rock for your aquarium it doesn't matter if it dissolves or crumbles on occasion. I use the waterproofing for the walls of a cement tank or pool. It also gives you a more solid surface to bond acrylic viewing panels. For smaller panels I use silicone to bond the panels in place. For larger panels, a rubber gasket with stainless steel fastening brackets is more efficient. Two of the acrylic panels in my current project are 600 cm long x 220 cm high x 10 cm thick (20'L x 7'H x 4"T), and way 1100 kg (2400 lbs).

There are a few other companies that make similar coatings that crystalize to fill cement voids deep within the cement matrix. Penetron is another product interchangeable with Xypex. Here's a few links.
http://video.google.com/videosearch...sa=X&oi=video_result_group&resnum=4&ct=title#
http://video.google.com/videosearch..._result_group&resnum=4&ct=title#q=xypex&emb=0

 

[darkdruid]

If you are making small pieces of rock or frag plugs, the easiest way to cure them might sound wierd but it works. Put them in a mesh bag and place them in your toilet tank. It's not gross and nasty, it's clean water. Every time you flush the toilet it gets a 100% water change. Even if you live by yourself, that's several times a day. The constant changing of the water really speeds things up.

 

[superscenic]

Credit where its due!!

Credit where its due!!

In my glee at discovering this 4 part thread on live rock I completely neglected to thank the originator and benefactor of this entire thread: Travis L. Stevens

Here is an artist who selflessly showed me that I could in fact create any rock I wanted and then he shared it with all of us. To top it all off in a spark of brilliance he thought of adding coarse salt to the mix. Instantly turning all our creations into porous filters. So simple yet so genius.

I would like to say THANK YOU TRAVIS L. STEVENS

You are indeed my hero and a Conservation King. Many happy species will benefit from gorgeous habitats and many more will be left in peace in the wild.

I would like to bless you with the highest honour any reef keeper may receive: GILLS!

Please consider setting up a quarantine tank. I would like to send you a piece of well seeded artificial live rock when I have my propagantion setup running. (which may take some time lol)

In the meantime perhaps your fellows in the USA may bless you with pieces of artificial live rock as way of gratitude for helping them create awesome scapes. May your biodiversity approach millions.

Thanks again Travis

Superscenic
Cape Town
South Africa

 

[texmexbigspring]

has anyone used this??

has anyone used this??

I was at lowes the other day and seen portland with lime cement that was white. Is this ok to use??? Thanks

 

[mr.wilson]

Re: has anyone used this??

Re: has anyone used this??

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14380691#post14380691 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by texmexbigspring
I was at lowes the other day and seen portland with lime cement that was white. Is this ok to use??? Thanks

Yes, lots of people in this thread use it. It's just a personal preference for colour.

 

[texmexbigspring]

Re: Re: has anyone used this??

Re: Re: has anyone used this??

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14380752#post14380752 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mr.wilson
Yes, lots of people in this thread use it. It's just a personal preference for colour.

Thanks for the quick reply mr wilson so the lime doesnt make any difference. It didnt have type on it. They also had the portland I/II that was grey but if I can use white that is what I want. Thanks again

 

[mr.wilson]

Re: Re: Re: has anyone used this??

Re: Re: Re: has anyone used this??

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14380781#post14380781 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by texmexbigspring
Thanks for the quick reply mr wilson so the lime doesnt make any difference. It didnt have type on it. They also had the portland I/II that was grey but if I can use white that is what I want. Thanks again

I guess I should have been more specific. You can buy type 1 or 11 in grey or white. If the stuff you are looking at is a hydrated lime mix, it will be a little weaker, but increase the resistance to sulphate attack. It has more calcium in it, so it may require more curing time. You should also make sure you wear gloves and other safety equipment as it is more caustic than standard portland.

There are also some grout and stucco mixes that are white. They are nice and sticky, but not as strong. You may have problems with some of these mixes dissolving or breaking apart. Some of these also contain silica sand which has varied opinions of suitability. I choose not to use silica sand, but I don't believe it has a significant impact on water quality.

If I were you, I would mix the white hydrated lime mortar with type 1 or 11 grey portland. "Insane Reefer" recommends 1/3 hydrated lime to 2/3 portland, and of course the aggregate of your choice. The type of aggregate you select will further influence the colour and texture of the finished product.

 

[JoelNB]

Does anyone know whether dripping vinegar (in the later stages of kuring) to keep the pH between 7 and 8 is as good as a water change?

 

[mr.wilson]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14398790#post14398790 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JoelNB
Does anyone know whether dripping vinegar (in the later stages of kuring) to keep the pH between 7 and 8 is as good as a water change?

You could use acid or Co2 to regulate PH, but this will extend the curing time as the dissolution rate is increased. In other words, you would make more "room" for alkaline properties in the rock (mostly calcium) to go into solution.

Soaking man made rock in acid or RO/DI water will slowly dissolve the rock and increase the curing time. The PH stabilization process is 80% dry curing (28 days), and 20% rinsing or soaking.

Soaking the rock in water isn't the key, it's more about washing away the calcium precipitate that continues to come out of the rock during the hydration period. Buy a good quality PH test kit and make sure it stays below 9.

If you are setting up a new tank, PH maintenance isn't as important as adding new rock to an established tank. The nitrification process can still be established at a PH of 9.

Sometimes I spray a weak acid (hydrochloric) on rock formations to get rid of loose pieces, but in general, just spray it with a hose for the same result.

 

[Rhodophyta]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14398790#post14398790 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JoelNB
Does anyone know whether dripping vinegar (in the later stages of kuring) to keep the pH between 7 and 8 is as good as a water change?

Both tend to weaken the concrete and to start the release of calcium that would otherwise become bonded and insoluble. It is better to do partial water changes, no more than you would do on sensitive tank inhabitants, which in the time frame means probably none at all unless you soak the rock for more than month. Using some discard water from a reef tank, especially if it has some detritus and "dirt" in it, is the quickest way to keep the rock strong and stop the release of calcium. Setting them up as if in a tank and introducing some mangrove gambusia or saltwater mollies can speed up the stabilization of the rock. Fish release ammonia, not acetic acid, as waste products, and you can dose with ammonia instead of introducing live hardy fish to help the rock seal itself.