The Ultimate DIY Rocks!
- Thread starter JohnL
- Start date
goldmaniac
New member
Well, I guess my chief concern about any rock is how much area is available for bacterial growth. We see this a lot in mature tanks with beautiful coraline covered rocks. They can crash and burn because the coraline has essentially negated the porosity of the rock. So here comes that annoying urchin, doing nothing but its job...cleaning off the rocks.
So with rock like yours, how do you gauge the extent to which it can house bacteria? I would think there must be some method, perhaps some kind of water displacement test? Just a curiosity of mine. How do we, as hobbyists, value rock?
I didn't mean to attack your comment, and it sounded like I did. I just dont know how we'd measure bacterial colonization unless you wiped a swab of bacteria onto petri dishes, counted bacteria per surface area, and then also figured out surface area somehow.
It would be interesting to know, however. I didn't mean anything by it.
DeathWish302
Clown Hoarder
I let a rock the size of a canteloupe dry out in the sun for about 48 hrs then weighed it. I then compare the weight to that of the same rock after dipped in water and letting the surface water drop off for about 10 sec. I found that the rock held around ~12fl oz. of the water after. I think this is as good as most reef rock.
If you want added microscopic porosity, using a wetter mix will create this condition. This will result in a weaker end product though
If you want added microscopic porosity, using a wetter mix will create this condition. This will result in a weaker end product though
Electrobes
Montipora type guy
Argh my subscription apparently isn't telling me about posts on this thread. 
Sorry J, for the late response. I had considered figuring out a way to measure it, or at least find a standard but there just isn't any, and the only method I know of is as what was described above. Definitely waaaaaay too much work considering the volume I produce (Which is not much right now when compared to typical manufacturers).
I just let people's response gauge how good my rocks are.
Thankfully (Depends how you see it) retailers are quick to let me know if my rocks suck or not. :lol:
Sorry J, for the late response. I had considered figuring out a way to measure it, or at least find a standard but there just isn't any, and the only method I know of is as what was described above. Definitely waaaaaay too much work considering the volume I produce (Which is not much right now when compared to typical manufacturers).
I just let people's response gauge how good my rocks are.
Thankfully (Depends how you see it) retailers are quick to let me know if my rocks suck or not. :lol:
DeathWish302
Clown Hoarder
Argh my subscription apparently isn't telling me about posts on this thread.
You know you can change the subscription notification to 'Instant' in you Subscribed Threads section of My RC right? If not you can for future notices...
Just in case you didn't know....:thumbsup:
Electrobes
Montipora type guy
Yeah when that happened I checked the subscription and for some reason it is the only one listed as daily... not sure why. Anyway.. switched! 
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
Argh my subscription apparently isn't telling me about posts on this thread.
Me too. I thought the thread was dead.
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
You can measure void space by weighing the rock dry and then getting a wet weight after, but you have to weigh it carefully while it is still soaked. This doesn't give you a measurement of viable sites for bacteria (surface area) though. Lighter rock only proves that there is more void space and isn't necessarily guaranteeing surface area. It is however likely that a lot of "air" in the rock will have many small cavities with lots of surface area, rather than a fewer number of large air pockets.
Siporax is a superior site for bacteria in comparison to natural reef rock. Cement has a similar pore matrix to siporax and other ceramic media. Most people use an aragonite rich mix with their cement, so we are really only looking at 1/3 of the mixture (portland) that differs from natural reef rock in physical properties. http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/473/Siporax
DeathWish302
Clown Hoarder
You beat me to my latest idea Mr. Wilson..... ok, it should be common knowledge. I'm in the process of acquiring some broken ceramics (the ones you paint pre-firing). You could use tile, but I have a free source for this. The next question will be if a forklift can crush the figurines and what ever other shapes to a finer 'gravel' w/o major sharp edges. If so, this will likely replace a good portion of OS in my mix. Possibly even a neutral cheap ceramic tile from Lowe's/HD could be used after broken up with a hammer. Anyway, same idea as the siporax.....
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
Not all ceramics are created equal. Make sure the garden gnomes aren't water soluble and free of lead.
Electrobes
Montipora type guy
Garden gnomes :lol:
mr.wilson - I know you use cement to create structures for places like aquariums and others (And I have to say, some of the most incredible work I've seen concerning cement and concrete) but do you also make MMR on the side or for self use?
mr.wilson - I know you use cement to create structures for places like aquariums and others (And I have to say, some of the most incredible work I've seen concerning cement and concrete) but do you also make MMR on the side or for self use?
New Rock
New Rock
I made some DIY rock, I put it under plastic and keep it wet with a spray bottle for two weeks, then I put it in a tub of water (tap) and made a water change every night, it has been just over a week in the water and it takes about 12 to 15 hours to reach 9ph. the ? is,
1: when do I put it in salt water
2: will salt water change the ph reading back over 9 or 10
3: how often do I make a salt water change
4: can I do a 5 gal water change (total tub is 50 gal) to save on salt
5: can I use my water from my running tank
All this rock will be going into a new tank, what is the best way to start its life, and what is the Ideal make up of a sump and refug.
sorry for all the ?, but this is how we all learn and I love DIY
Thanks for all your help
Tim
New Rock
I made some DIY rock, I put it under plastic and keep it wet with a spray bottle for two weeks, then I put it in a tub of water (tap) and made a water change every night, it has been just over a week in the water and it takes about 12 to 15 hours to reach 9ph. the ? is,
1: when do I put it in salt water
2: will salt water change the ph reading back over 9 or 10
3: how often do I make a salt water change
4: can I do a 5 gal water change (total tub is 50 gal) to save on salt
5: can I use my water from my running tank
All this rock will be going into a new tank, what is the best way to start its life, and what is the Ideal make up of a sump and refug.
sorry for all the ?, but this is how we all learn and I love DIY
Thanks for all your help
Tim
DeathWish302
Clown Hoarder
Agreed. These items are mainly coffee mugs and are not water soluble to my knowledge. I'll do a test beforehand. I've also have some access to some borken pottery that I know is food-safe and should work fine but I'm uncertain of the porosity versus ceramics.
Any idea if ceramics used for tiles (flooring or countertop) are high in lead? I would suppose these DO NOT have to meet the same standards as food contact. Then again, there was lead in matchbox car paint.....
goldmaniac
New member
I have always stuck to fresh (tap or RO/DI runoff) water for pH curing. The last time I did it, I kept a record of date and pH for every change. I had 32 gallon Brute Trash cans half-filled with MMLR, and filled it to the top with tap water every 2-3-4 days, and it took 25 trashcans of changes before pH settled at 9.0 pH. if you did that with salt water, that would be hundreds of $$, in my opinion.
When I would do Display Tank water changes, I would use the waste water from the display tank, as well, as that didn't cost anything to re-use.
\ just sharing what I did.
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
I had big plans of putting up greenhouses, making rock, and culturing it in vats on a wholesale level but I was working in Europe for a year and now I'm back in Toronto living in an apartment instead of a country property. I'm still sold on the idea. I just don't want to do it until I can get all my ducks in a row and do it efficiently. I don't think it's something that you can ease into from making rock in your backyard... and I don't even have a backyard
Over the years I have made rocks here and there, but I get a competitive price on live rock so I have limited cement work to covering pipes, back walls and overflows. The styrofoam work was fun. I would like to get more into doing that stuff on site for big tanks. I bought a gunite machine and I'm really impressed with the quality of the cement you get and the textures you can make. I think I would incorporate this machine into making smaller individual rocks as well. I just have to come up with a way of limiting waste. The good thing is everything is recyclable.
If and when I ever get my act together to make rock on a large scale I would incorporate overflow boxes and plumbing lines into some pieces. Maybe some 3-4" diameter pipes in a few rocks for the people that want to hide powerheads.
There is some cheap dry rock on the market these days, but it is still from environmentally questionable sources so I would like to see a lot more home made products on the market. I don't have a problem with a ban on live rock collection at all. The people that collect it can go back to clear cutting forests and bombing reefs
An all out ban is the only thing that will get hobbyists to realize MMR is a better option in every respect. The only thing we need to work on as an industry is inoculating the rock with beneficial bacteria and desirable organisms (pods & coraline etc.). There's no reason why can't be competitive to overseas markets. Just look at the shipping costs. There have been a number of pioneers that have bit the bullet and ricked their marriages by opening coral farms across North America. The overhead and very high and the return on investment is a long haul. Many of them have bitten off more than they can chew. It's a hell of a lot less capital investment, operating cost, and maintenance to throw up a few cold frames (simple greenhouses) and line a trench filled with saltwater. Aragonite is $150 a ton, and a bag of cultured live sand sells for $2 a pound. Coraline algae and pods can be cultured between 50-95 degrees F, perhaps even more extreme. Once your product goes to market, the tank has an instant nitrogen cycle and subsequent filtration capacity. Compare that to the roller coaster ride of live rock that has been in shipping boxes for two months.
I know I'm preaching to the converted here, but you are the only ones who will listen to me
DeathWish302
Clown Hoarder
I know I'm preaching to the converted here, but you are the only ones who will listen to me
But repetition is the best way to not forget why you are using your current method of thinking.
We were on Highway 1 on the CA coast near Pigeon Point and my buddy told his GF something that has stuck with me since. She was picking up shells and he said the follow:
Imagine if you had a gravel driveway and every person in North America cam eto this driveway and took one rock. Soon you would have a mud lane instead of a gravel driveway.
So I do agree and have joined the following of captive-bred fish, captive-cloned anemones & homegrown corals/rock/live sand in EVERY setup. I have about 20lbs of wild reef rock and would send it back to the Marshal Islands and Soloman Islands if I could....
So maybe you are talking to the converted masses, but their our those few you could spark to become crusaders...
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
Then let's see some sparks fly!
Electrobes
Montipora type guy
I had big plans of putting up greenhouses, making rock, and culturing it in vats on a wholesale level but I was working in Europe for a year and now I'm back in Toronto living in an apartment instead of a country property. I'm still sold on the idea. I just don't want to do it until I can get all my ducks in a row and do it efficiently. I don't think it's something that you can ease into from making rock in your backyard... and I don't even have a backyard
Over the years I have made rocks here and there, but I get a competitive price on live rock so I have limited cement work to covering pipes, back walls and overflows. The styrofoam work was fun. I would like to get more into doing that stuff on site for big tanks. I bought a gunite machine and I'm really impressed with the quality of the cement you get and the textures you can make. I think I would incorporate this machine into making smaller individual rocks as well. I just have to come up with a way of limiting waste. The good thing is everything is recyclable.
If and when I ever get my act together to make rock on a large scale I would incorporate overflow boxes and plumbing lines into some pieces. Maybe some 3-4" diameter pipes in a few rocks for the people that want to hide powerheads.
There is some cheap dry rock on the market these days, but it is still from environmentally questionable sources so I would like to see a lot more home made products on the market. I don't have a problem with a ban on live rock collection at all. The people that collect it can go back to clear cutting forests and bombing reefs
There have been a number of pioneers that have bit the bullet and ricked their marriages by opening coral farms across North America. The overhead and very high and the return on investment is a long haul. Many of them have bitten off more than they can chew. It's a hell of a lot less capital investment, operating cost, and maintenance to throw up a few cold frames (simple greenhouses) and line a trench filled with saltwater. Aragonite is $150 a ton, and a bag of cultured live sand sells for $2 a pound. Coraline algae and pods can be cultured between 50-95 degrees F, perhaps even more extreme. Once your product goes to market, the tank has an instant nitrogen cycle and subsequent filtration capacity. Compare that to the roller coaster ride of live rock that has been in shipping boxes for two months.
I know I'm preaching to the converted here, but you are the only ones who will listen to me
You said it best, you are talking to the converted! I had the same thought process you did, sort of. After I fired myself from my Dad's job (He felt bad, but was paying me to sit on my butt) last November I considered getting into coral propagation via a greenhouse.
After completing a lengthy business plan, visiting other greenhouses, jamming more numbers together the risk was just too high for the needed money needed for investment. I then thought about rock making, as I have done it before and the numbers jived perfectly.
I am not seeking to get huge or anything, I am a house husband, and eventually will be a house dad but I still have quite a bit of time on my hands, and it bugs me not to work. I only have four 100G tubs right now, but I'm thinking my rate of growth will be somewhat close to the rate that more and more hobbyists (My customers are retailers, I am a wholesaler) are attracted to MMR here in the States. You're right about shipping and being competitive.
I'll more than likely be moving next June, and depending where we move to I'll hopefully get a greenhouse (Which is more likely than not). My goal is to basically be big enough to supply a single big-box online store, after that I have no plans to get any bigger.
Electrobes
Montipora type guy
Meh, the biggest problem with that idea is that if you screw it up, you ain't gunna be happy. I think the biggest part of purchasing MMR is the work put into it by the builder. It takes a while before good rock is made, a lot of screw ups.
Sending out kits to, what will most likely be, first time rock builders won't end well IMO. Even if they got the mixture right, it isn't easy to foresee and then build what you want the first few times you make rock.
Sending out kits to, what will most likely be, first time rock builders won't end well IMO. Even if they got the mixture right, it isn't easy to foresee and then build what you want the first few times you make rock.
