The Ultimate DIY Rocks!
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Insane Reefer
New member
Awesome, Phil 
Thanks!
I have a question for people.
I was browsing on eBay and saw this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=120240061947&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=002
I contacted the seller and they said it could reach temps of 130-140°F, in an enclosed space (like a bathroom), which got me thinking.
This personal sauna would be an excellent way for people to steam kure their rock. It is somewhat limited, and would need several refills and resets, and because of the lower temp, would need to stay in a few hours longer (but also safer for the rock and less likely to over-heat), but it could still be a way to do it for a lot of people.
So I started looking at steam generating devices to power my larger rock sauna that I am planning to build with an old deep freeze, and came to these: http://www.jiffysteamer.com/Products/index.asp?steamerCatId=2
Anyone have one of these?
I was thinking this might be exactly what I am looking for. Safer than the pressure cooker and burner, and less apt to hit excessive temps (meaning not needing to babysit so much). A crafty person might be able to covert the gallon jug type models to a larger reservoir (even though they distinctly say not to do this, lol - so not recommending that anyone else try this, ok?), which would also lessen the need to sit on a stream batch. I'm only wondering if it has the "umpf" needed to bring the rock sauna to my target of 150°F?
Thoughts?
Thanks!
I have a question for people.
I was browsing on eBay and saw this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=120240061947&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=002
I contacted the seller and they said it could reach temps of 130-140°F, in an enclosed space (like a bathroom), which got me thinking.
This personal sauna would be an excellent way for people to steam kure their rock. It is somewhat limited, and would need several refills and resets, and because of the lower temp, would need to stay in a few hours longer (but also safer for the rock and less likely to over-heat), but it could still be a way to do it for a lot of people.
So I started looking at steam generating devices to power my larger rock sauna that I am planning to build with an old deep freeze, and came to these: http://www.jiffysteamer.com/Products/index.asp?steamerCatId=2
Anyone have one of these?
I was thinking this might be exactly what I am looking for. Safer than the pressure cooker and burner, and less apt to hit excessive temps (meaning not needing to babysit so much). A crafty person might be able to covert the gallon jug type models to a larger reservoir (even though they distinctly say not to do this, lol - so not recommending that anyone else try this, ok?), which would also lessen the need to sit on a stream batch. I'm only wondering if it has the "umpf" needed to bring the rock sauna to my target of 150°F?
Thoughts?
WHAT IT IS
New member
Insane....so why 150F ??
What about a few simple light bulbs in the freezer unit? I am not sure what temp they will drive it up to. Maybe a metal halide...or a "heat lamp"....or maybe an old style BBQ starter (the one that was an oven element on a handle :furious: ) Would get really warm in there!
What about a few simple light bulbs in the freezer unit? I am not sure what temp they will drive it up to. Maybe a metal halide...or a "heat lamp"....or maybe an old style BBQ starter (the one that was an oven element on a handle :furious: ) Would get really warm in there!
a1amap
New member
How about a vaporizer? You could increase the bucket size (length and width but not depth) Steam when not under pressure is roughly 100 degrees celsius at 1 atm. pressure, Which is about 212 degrees fahrenheit. More then hot enough. Most people add a little salt or other minerals to the water to increase the visable steam.
Insane Reefer
New member
150°F because that is the highest temp cement can "safely" handle (without micro-fracturing), What it is, and is the temp used in the cement block industry when they steam block and don't use pressure. Not going for heat so much, but the steam associated with the heat - the heat is sort of a measure of what is going on inside the rock sauna.
Thanks for the suggestion A1amap. I saw the vaporizers (as well as steam machines), but since I've never used one, wasn't sure about how much steam they put out. I like the way the clothes steamer already has a hose, so hooking it to the freezer would be easier, but I will look closer at the vaporizers...
Thanks for the suggestion A1amap. I saw the vaporizers (as well as steam machines), but since I've never used one, wasn't sure about how much steam they put out. I like the way the clothes steamer already has a hose, so hooking it to the freezer would be easier, but I will look closer at the vaporizers...
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Insane Reefer
New member
I realized today, as I opened a bag with curing rock in it, that I like the smell of punky cement in the morning...
Anyway.
Looked at humidifiers. I think this kind is what A1amap was talking about:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Hankscraft-Humi...ryZ71240QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
I could attach some mongo sized hose to this - ACE has a good selection of pool hose and the like.
But this one would be easier to get a hose attached to (and is sort of cute):
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=9193310
Now. Looking at the clothes steamer, with a one gallon reservoir, those produce steam for an hour and a half, to two hours. The humidifiers have approximately the same well size, but are designed to run for up to 10 hours.
So I wonder if the humidifier would put out enough steam? To me, it sounds like the heating element in the humidifier/vaporizer units is much smaller than they are in the clothes steamer (around 1300W in the models that interest me), causing the steamer to use it's water supply much quicker, and you'd think, with more steam.
Would someone who has a humidifier be willing to try a quick experiment for me???
It will be very easy to do. Get your humidifier, a thermometer, and a box or cooler. Put the humidifier in the box or cooler and run it for half an hour. Take a reading on the interior of the box or cooler and tell me what it is?
I'd be ever so grateful...
Anyway.
Looked at humidifiers. I think this kind is what A1amap was talking about:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Hankscraft-Humi...ryZ71240QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
I could attach some mongo sized hose to this - ACE has a good selection of pool hose and the like.
But this one would be easier to get a hose attached to (and is sort of cute):
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=9193310
Now. Looking at the clothes steamer, with a one gallon reservoir, those produce steam for an hour and a half, to two hours. The humidifiers have approximately the same well size, but are designed to run for up to 10 hours.
So I wonder if the humidifier would put out enough steam? To me, it sounds like the heating element in the humidifier/vaporizer units is much smaller than they are in the clothes steamer (around 1300W in the models that interest me), causing the steamer to use it's water supply much quicker, and you'd think, with more steam.
Would someone who has a humidifier be willing to try a quick experiment for me???
It will be very easy to do. Get your humidifier, a thermometer, and a box or cooler. Put the humidifier in the box or cooler and run it for half an hour. Take a reading on the interior of the box or cooler and tell me what it is?
I'd be ever so grateful...
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Insane Reefer
New member
Awesome, Leebo! I would have expected it to not harden after this much time. Wonder how it will turn out? You'll have to let us know. Just goes to show - nothing in the cement field is carved in stone, lol.
I don't really use salt much anymore - I think there is too much risk for potential failure to feel comfortable using it to make commercial rock (between the couple of reports here on the thread, about failing Salt Rock, and the half dozen or so PM's I've gotten about it, I'm really hesitant to even recommend it anymore). And I never use salt in features like walls - I think walls need to be fairly solid to have enough strength to hold up for the long term, and salt does weaken cement.
My recommendation for salt is that if you like the idea of extra voids, use it sparingly - a handful or two per batch, and use other aggregates too.
And the Rock Sauna is for Curing rock.
I don't really use salt much anymore - I think there is too much risk for potential failure to feel comfortable using it to make commercial rock (between the couple of reports here on the thread, about failing Salt Rock, and the half dozen or so PM's I've gotten about it, I'm really hesitant to even recommend it anymore). And I never use salt in features like walls - I think walls need to be fairly solid to have enough strength to hold up for the long term, and salt does weaken cement.
My recommendation for salt is that if you like the idea of extra voids, use it sparingly - a handful or two per batch, and use other aggregates too.
And the Rock Sauna is for Curing rock.
salty joe
Active member
Hey Insane-that keystone wall is OUTSTANDING! Really, the seams are gone when it is assembled.
I have been thinking about something, I wonder if I can get your advice?
I have a tank in the works with a 84"x30" viewing panel and back wall. I want to cover the back with MMLR, but I want it to slope so that the top is about 5"-6" closer to the viewing panel than the bottom. I think the reverse slope will give a natural looking depth perception. Do you think plastic mesh would be useful in the casting process to hold it together? I was thinking about making pieces 30" tall and fitting them together, then I saw your very nice work. With the top so far away from the back panel, I thought maybe putting holes in the wall so critters can hide. I'm thinking maybe hold the bottom off the back panel an inch or so and keep it off the bottom a little bit so as not to be a major detritus trap.
Whattaya think?
Joe
I have been thinking about something, I wonder if I can get your advice?
I have a tank in the works with a 84"x30" viewing panel and back wall. I want to cover the back with MMLR, but I want it to slope so that the top is about 5"-6" closer to the viewing panel than the bottom. I think the reverse slope will give a natural looking depth perception. Do you think plastic mesh would be useful in the casting process to hold it together? I was thinking about making pieces 30" tall and fitting them together, then I saw your very nice work. With the top so far away from the back panel, I thought maybe putting holes in the wall so critters can hide. I'm thinking maybe hold the bottom off the back panel an inch or so and keep it off the bottom a little bit so as not to be a major detritus trap.
Whattaya think?
Joe
Insane Reefer
New member
Hi there Joe!
It should be amazing, when done, though. Have you given any thought to how you will secure this, or are you counting on the weight/DSB to keep it in place?
And you realize with the reverse slope, the area's beneath the upper slope will not get as much light? I sort of drew a dotted line where the lip falls, and is thus sort of shadowed; that will be true for things mounted to the wall, as well as on the rock below the edge of the lip. On a tank that size, real-estate isn't at a premium, but thought I'd point it out, as shadowed area's don't usually color up as nicely, and might also limit what you might be able to put there.
What recipe will you use and what are your plans for curing and kuring it?
Hope this helps
Keep us posted and if you have more questions, please feel free to ask...
I'm rather proud of it myself - thanks for the kind words
For what it's worth, sure!
So looking at a side view, it would look something like this?
I can't answer to that one, not knowing much about engineering and perception.
As pointed out, nothing is built in concrete that doesn't have reinforcement, with the exceptions of breeze blocks (CMU's) and stepping/paving stones. Phil's backwall is the first wall I've used reinforcement in - and I only reinforced the thin area around the return hole. Normally, since the backwalls aren't really load-bearing, I think reinforcement is a bit of overkill, so long as the average thickness is at least 1". But you have a monster tank with a really tall display area (30"), so reinforcement is probably a good idea (if not in fact mandatory) in your case, and I would recommend casting thicker than normal - 2" thick as a minimum.
Excellent idea - think of clowns and anemones - maybe a ledge-cave combo? Spiral shells, broken, can be pressed in to make interesting hidy-holes. Salt, wrapped in tissue paper is an easy way to make caves. And fishing rubber/silicone bait worms make great tunnels that aren't just a straight poke.
I'm not sure that would be a benefit - you would be creating a zone that would certainly accumulate detritus. The best way to avoid detritus buildup is to have the wall be in complete contact with the glass, such as by using silicone, casting in place, etc. At least that is my thought.
Sounds like a plan, and a lot of work
It should be amazing, when done, though. Have you given any thought to how you will secure this, or are you counting on the weight/DSB to keep it in place?And you realize with the reverse slope, the area's beneath the upper slope will not get as much light? I sort of drew a dotted line where the lip falls, and is thus sort of shadowed; that will be true for things mounted to the wall, as well as on the rock below the edge of the lip. On a tank that size, real-estate isn't at a premium, but thought I'd point it out, as shadowed area's don't usually color up as nicely, and might also limit what you might be able to put there.
What recipe will you use and what are your plans for curing and kuring it?
Hope this helps
Keep us posted and if you have more questions, please feel free to ask...
Insane Reefer
New member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12256615#post12256615 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by a1amap
I will try the vaporizer in the cooler this weekend and let you know.
Groovy, A1amap, thanks a LOT! Did you happen to have this, or are you picking one up to be a guinea pig?
Either way, let me know how it goes and THANK YOU!
And that is a great idea for adding capacity to the clothes steamer. I have a feeling it will need to be a sealed system though, so instead of a bucket, maybe a larger jug, upside down would work better?
salty joe
Active member
Thanks IR, I appreciate your response.
I don't know about the recipe, the cure or the kure-I'll have to learn what to do. I've worked a little bit with concrete, mortar,grout-portland cement type stuff, but my only concern has been to not let it dry before it gets a chance to cure.
Yes, your diagram is exactly what I envision. I kind of like that it will be somewhat shadowed. I'm hoping it makes it appear farther away.
Casting in place sounds good right now. I could fasten posts to the back wall with the longest ones at the top. Then zip tie plastic mesh to the posts. With the tank on its side, sand could be loaded between the mesh and the back panel at the desired slope. Then install the concrete, trying to keep the mesh in the middle of the concrete. It would end up hollow behind the MMLR wall, and the bottom of the wall would be above the floor of the tank to let detritus drop to the bottom of the tank. If something died back there, it could be retrieved from the top. The wall will be heavy, so maybe 5 or 6 support posts from the bottom of the wall to the bottom of the tank.
Sound doable?
I don't know about the recipe, the cure or the kure-I'll have to learn what to do. I've worked a little bit with concrete, mortar,grout-portland cement type stuff, but my only concern has been to not let it dry before it gets a chance to cure.
Yes, your diagram is exactly what I envision. I kind of like that it will be somewhat shadowed. I'm hoping it makes it appear farther away.
Casting in place sounds good right now. I could fasten posts to the back wall with the longest ones at the top. Then zip tie plastic mesh to the posts. With the tank on its side, sand could be loaded between the mesh and the back panel at the desired slope. Then install the concrete, trying to keep the mesh in the middle of the concrete. It would end up hollow behind the MMLR wall, and the bottom of the wall would be above the floor of the tank to let detritus drop to the bottom of the tank. If something died back there, it could be retrieved from the top. The wall will be heavy, so maybe 5 or 6 support posts from the bottom of the wall to the bottom of the tank.
Sound doable?
Insane Reefer
New member
NP
Still needs to be a concern
Cement is cement, you know?Building in place means your options for curing and kuring are more limited, but gives you more peace of mind as far as slippage, etc.
When you post pictures, we will tell you if you succeeded
Sure it does. I'm still not totally hip with the hollow backwall idea, but physically, I see no reason that wouldn't work. The post idea should work fine. I might suggest lifting/opening the front part of the wall shell up so it is above the DSB - maybe that is what you mean by "above the floor of the tank", do it sort of like a dresser is made on the bottom - legs or supports on either end, with a clear rise, so you can blow back there or get a hold of a dead critter.
Something like this is what I was thinking...
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Insane Reefer
New member
Just had another idea while talking to my hubby about this wall of yours, Joe.
If you really want it off the glass, you could use plexi-glass to form a new wall (even use the post idea to anchor it), at the distance you want it from the glass (drill 3/4"-1" holes all over the plexi (reinforcement!)), and once the cement is in place, fill that hollow space up with DSB sand, and have 30" of DSB. Mr. Wilson did it on one of his builds, or something very like this, and it sounded like it worked out great...
If you really want it off the glass, you could use plexi-glass to form a new wall (even use the post idea to anchor it), at the distance you want it from the glass (drill 3/4"-1" holes all over the plexi (reinforcement!)), and once the cement is in place, fill that hollow space up with DSB sand, and have 30" of DSB. Mr. Wilson did it on one of his builds, or something very like this, and it sounded like it worked out great...
Insane Reefer
New member
Re-reading the specifications on the elephant vaporizer, on another site, it said that it uses ultrasonics to generate the steam. To me that says that it isn't going to produce very much heat.
Wet and warm is what is needed. It will be interesting to see if this can do it. Please let me know if the vaporizer provides any heat.
Thanks!
Wet and warm is what is needed. It will be interesting to see if this can do it. Please let me know if the vaporizer provides any heat.
Thanks!
salty joe
Active member
I'm such a dope. I got so excited about using MMLR for a reverse slope that I forgot about the coast to coast return. DUH!
The return can be installed inside the tank & will be about 5" wide and 10" deep. The MMLR could be brought up to the bottom of the plastic teeth in the overflow. Since there will not be access from the top, I am no longer interested in a hollow wall. The MMLR could extend all the way to the bottom of tank for support. But solid concrete would be HEAVY. What do you think of using Styrofoam to build up between the back of the tank and the MMLR?
What do you think would be my best recipe? I agree with you that strength is way more important than porosity.
For the cure, should the MMLR be kept damp for a few weeks then fill the tank and lotsa water changes until the PH is right?
It's going to be awhile before this tank gets built. First comes a driveway, landscaping, and my wife insists we have some furniture in our front room first. Can you believe that? Just kidding. She's the best.
Anyway, when I do start goofing around with MMLR reverse slope, I promise to post pics.
Thanks for your help.
Joe
The return can be installed inside the tank & will be about 5" wide and 10" deep. The MMLR could be brought up to the bottom of the plastic teeth in the overflow. Since there will not be access from the top, I am no longer interested in a hollow wall. The MMLR could extend all the way to the bottom of tank for support. But solid concrete would be HEAVY. What do you think of using Styrofoam to build up between the back of the tank and the MMLR?
What do you think would be my best recipe? I agree with you that strength is way more important than porosity.
For the cure, should the MMLR be kept damp for a few weeks then fill the tank and lotsa water changes until the PH is right?
It's going to be awhile before this tank gets built. First comes a driveway, landscaping, and my wife insists we have some furniture in our front room first. Can you believe that? Just kidding. She's the best.
Anyway, when I do start goofing around with MMLR reverse slope, I promise to post pics.
Thanks for your help.
Joe
