The unethical side......

[PROlife]

Hello, I am/? a returning reefer having kept and worked in this hobby for over 10years I took a break so that I might focus on other things.

Having some spare time and money once again I've been thinking about starting another tank or seven up again, my plan was to be as ethical as possible hell completely ethical was my aim.

No sooner than I had decided to return to this hobby, I have found that very little has changed and its ****ing me off to the point of putting me off starting up again.

In short, my plan was going to be home made rock, SPS frags or cultured and tank breed fish only (yes I know a small list) and so on.

My problem is that while I've been looking around and making my plans, everywhere I look I'm seeing problems regarding what shops are stocking and the health of their stock.

I've posted on FB twice now pointing out the stock that a shop has posted simply should not be sold (Panther grouper, Moorish Idol, cleaner wrasse and so on), I've yet to go into a shop where I do not see a fish that is ill.

The reply/excuses I get are wearing thin, this one annoyed me recently "Secondly, why do these fish keep being imported in numbers? Maybe it's not us shops that are to blame."

Another thing annoying me is that shops seem so proud that their stock comes from TMC, but all this says to me is that the shop has very little understanding of how they do things (this could have changed but I doubt it).

Now I know that most are going to flame me, and as of right now, although not the most articulate and having to check my spelling over and over, I say bring it. I will be corrected if I'm wrong but I won't suffer fools.

If someone from TMC sees this and takes offense please know your stuff before replying as I assure you I do about you.

To those who might side with me, you might be wondering what I'm after, ( I bloody am) To know that there are others out there who agree? To find a shop that truly understands the animals that make their bread and butter. (I'd travel, and spend extra without question) To find a like-minded group that might be willing to make a list of animals that shops should not sell, to encourage shops to set up quarantine (but to understand what and how to) and to shame those that don't and so on.


I am sorry if at the end of the day I'm the nut job and everyone ells is right.

I've also posted this on another site, but as of yet it's not been approved.

 

[Docdiggy]

Sounds like you should start a different hobby. There will always be sick fish in a LFS. Hundreds of fish in a closed system and QT is not possible for all stores.

 

[Docdiggy]

I'm not sure what TMC is, but I will agree that my LFS gets some fish that will not be sold and I don't understand why they don't see that and are willing to lose their investment. Groupers esp.

 

[PROlife]

Docdiggy, Yes maybe I shouldn't bother starting up again but is that really the right attitude I don't think so.
I very much enjoyed the corals I kept and would like to again, in a hobby that's 100% ethical or as close as.
I also think there is no excuse for a shop to not QT and think people should not shop at them if they do not.
It always amazes me when people buy animals that have not been QT and wipe their tank out, most will say that it's their fault for not placing the fish in QT themselves but surely it should be done both ends? (but granted it is their fault for shopping at a shop that does not QT lol)

 

[Nick_Northern]

Talking about TMC I presume you are in the UK? I am too and have stocked my tank with only captive brer fish and coral, only my clean up crew is wild caught as there really aren't any many cb invert options over here. Fish wise I have a mandarin, pair of clowns, banggai, flame and coral beauty angels all of which are captive bred. It is poss to stock your tank ethically but has cost me considerably more money than wild caught would have so it takes some commitment. Don't get ne started on LFS, there are some appaling shops in the UK, but there is one local to me that has the right attitude

I also used dry caribsea life rock with a couple of chunks of real reef rock taken from an LFS live rock tank to seed it

Sent from my F5121 using Tapatalk

 

[Timfish]

You have legitamate complaints. Unfortunately a lot of the blame can be put on us hobbyists and the fact we do not have any standards based on solid research. Locally a hobbyist a few years ago tried to set up a small business quarantining fish in his warehouse. While he had to shut it down because he sold his business he was not making money because people would not buy higher priced fish. He also had problems because some hobbyists would expect him to reimburse them when his fish would die or get parasites when placed in systems that had problems.

The poor long term survival rate of fish and corals is the motivation for activists to stop the aquarium trade. The concern I have is what happens if legislation is passed what can be collected or imported. For many island nations their reefs are an important sustainable resource. Liverock for example only takes a few years to form and used as building material is worth only a few cents per pound but as a product for the ornamental aquarium trade is worth much much more. Yellow Tangs in Hawai'i get a lot of attention but if we do not restore the apex preditors, ie sharks, the problem with Yellow Tangs out competing other species in the existing protected areas will become far more wide spread. Smart legislation needs to protect species diversity as well as create economic incentive to preserve reefs.

 

[Docdiggy]

If you look into where meat comes from the word ethical will have a whole new meaning compared to coral and ornamental fish. I understand what you're saying, but a full QT is not possible at all businesses or homes. Does that mean somebody that can't QT shouldn't be able to enjoy this hobby? Not IMO. I've never QT anything. My tank speaks for itself with that being said.

 

[squeakymcmurdo]

So I have a little bit different take on the whole captive-bred thing being the be all end all of best practices. As long as fish are sustainably harvested I see no issue with wild caught fish. For example I wouldn't want an entire population of fish captured, only a few. This could even be in the best interest of the wild population because it drives the desire to ensure ideal habitat for the wild individuals that are left. And of course using dip nets and such as to inspect captured individuals at the time of collection. I mean not all fish can be bred in captivity but they can thrive, so as long as humane and sustainable capture practices are used I believe this is still ethical.

 

[Valentini89]

So I have a little bit different take on the whole captive-bred thing being the be all end all of best practices. As long as fish are sustainably harvested I see no issue with wild caught fish. For example I wouldn't want an entire population of fish captured, only a few. This could even be in the best interest of the wild population because it drives the desire to ensure ideal habitat for the wild individuals that are left. And of course using dip nets and such as to inspect captured individuals at the time of collection. I mean not all fish can be bred in captivity but they can thrive, so as long as humane and sustainable capture practices are used I believe this is still ethical.

I agree with this, but honestly I don't care where my fish come from. As long as they are disease free when I get them and thrive in my tank that's all that matters. Maybe I'm wrong for thinking that way, but this IS what we do in this hobby and ultimately taking out 1000 or 10,000 tangs isn't going to make a difference. If anything it will control population in the ocean.

 

[mcgyvr]

A screen name of prolife and these types of rants right off the bat..
Blah..

Do life like you want and enjoy it....
Don't waste your time/breath trying to conform others.. Don't be so naive.. You will NOT..repeat NOT change the world.. Accept it, move on, do the best YOU can..

 

[PROlife]

I wanted to use PROrion as that's what I always use but it was already taken (probably by me but a while ago)

I see you have over 10k post so must be a very wise man, but I'm thinking most will be as sweet as your last and not so helpful.

So please unless you have anything positive, constructive or informative to add move on and keep doing the best you can.....

 

[Sk8r]

My advice, FWIW: set up properly so you don't kill fish or corals, get your chemistry right before you buy anything living. Reality is---predation happens. Little fish get eaten. Probably 98% of every hatch dies before maturity. Little fish should not be collected by dynamite or cyanide, for darn sure, but in general, most get eaten. But for your part, USE your tank to show neighbors, friends, children, the beauty under the waves, so when the news says oil spill, they immediately think of beauty lost. And concentrate your purchases on frags instead of colonies, on aquacultured, on tank-bred---they're getting more and more species; and most of all, take care of what you've got so you don't lose fish or corals. The hobby's getting better at that, just as freshwater has gotten away from wild collection. Help make THAT the case by supporting that sort of enterprise.

 

[PROlife]

Nick Northern, Yes mate I'm from the UK, my aim will be for captive breed only, you say the coral beauty I'd love one but I'm sure their tank raised not captive breed? Not worried about extra cost the wife will never find out
as far as she was aware my last tank fully setup only cost £500 You say don't get you started, I'd like to as I'm aware of how bad they are and am wondering why more is not done.

Timfish, I hear you but don't agree I worked in my local shop for over 8 years over time I managed to convince them to quarantine their stock, I build the systems from scratch (with guidance from a health adviser on here I think wombat his name?)
when I was done I cut their loss rate to less than 5% and there were no increases in costs as it was a constant roll if that makes sense, in the long run, they saved money. The next part to your post is not so easily replied to in a short post so, for now, I will leave that.

Docdiggy, I'm a vegan lol, a full QT is possible I ran a full 20 tank system at work, and skipped at home cos I was running it at work lol

Squeakymcmurdo, OK so I've kept all sorts of animals for over 30 years and in my mad way I came up with three rules that in my mind
should be in place if I want to keep something in captivity

1st It needs to be able to feed. (yes easy one, but you would be surprised how many things are kept but through poor diet simply waste away)
2nd Its need to behave in as natural way as possible, don't stick a polar bear in a desert
3rd It needs to be able to reproduce, If it cant then it should be left where it can and protected.

 

[PROlife]

SK8r, Enjoyed your post could not agree more,

My original post was very open with many things to talk about, my main aim was to focus on what species shop sell and moreover should not sell I now see I should have broken my post up a little but never mind, do you have any pet hates you don't like seeing in shops?

 

[Sk8r]

Sea apples and serpent stars.

Check out Live Aquaria and others of our sponsors---in particular, LA breaks down what's tank-raised, what's aquacultured, etc, so you know what's which.

 

[PROlife]

Ah yes, sea apples forgot about them, not seen one in years. Serpent stars why them?

 

[Sk8r]

Hard for most people to feed, and I don't mean serpent stars---BASKET stars. I'm short of right nouns today!

 

[Docdiggy]

Nothing against you being vegan, but the process still continues. I think that any lfs should be honest before selling a rookie a emperor Angel for their 55. Lots won't though. I agree with what you're saying, but people like us that are experienced would not be able to continue with this hobby if we were only allowed clowns and gsp. There's an ugly side to lots of things.

 

[squeakymcmurdo]

I agree with this, but honestly I don't care where my fish come from. As long as they are disease free when I get them and thrive in my tank that's all that matters. Maybe I'm wrong for thinking that way, but this IS what we do in this hobby and ultimately taking out 1000 or 10,000 tangs isn't going to make a difference. If anything it will control population in the ocean.

Oh for sure. As long as my fish and such are healthy I'm happy to give my patronage to vendors that provide them. I was just saying that to me sustainably collected and inspecting them individually before removal is ideal. I'm coming from a North American Native Fish Association perspective since I enjoy collecting my own freshwater fish and try to do it as humanely as possible. Totally have a cooler with a bubbler in my Jeep. Someday I might go to the ocean and collect a couple fish and inverts if it's legal in that state.

 

[Nick_Northern]

Nick Northern, Yes mate I'm from the UK, my aim will be for captive breed only, you say the coral beauty I'd love one but I'm sure their tank raised not captive breed? Not worried about extra cost the wife will never find out
as far as she was aware my last tank fully setup only cost £500 You say don't get you started, I'd like to as I'm aware of how bad they are and am wondering why more is not done.

The coral beauty is fully captive bred from Biota Palau as is the mandarin. There are still coral beauties available for purchase from a well known online UK supplier (I can PM you if interested) but the mandarins sold out fairly quickly. They also have other biota stock including aip-eating files, links goby and striped fang blennies. I started my tank just over a year ago and like you was pretty dismayed at that state of the hobby and some of the LFS I looked at which made me determined to go the CB route. It seemed like captive breeding in the UK in particular has taken a backward step so I started to contact places like ORA & Sustainable Aquatics and also breeders like the Batavia Institute in Aus (CB royal grammas) and Pacific Planktonics (CB Flame angels) to see about importing stock myself but couldn't make it work. Then right on que all of the Biota stock was imported which opened up many more options, then 6 months later TMC imported the same flame angels I had tried to import myself so all in all it's been a pretty good year for CB livestock in the UK! I appreciate not everyone will want to pay the extra for CB but for me and my own principals its worth it, I did get a few funny looks when I told people I paid £150 for a coral beauty thought to be fair! I understand that wild caught fish have a place but also think that whether people like it is inevitable that CB is going to play a larger role in the hobby in years to come and the reefs continue to degrade, hopefully this will increase demand and drive down costs.

As for the state of LFS at the moment I find some of the longer running establishments are shocking, I went into well known shop in Oxford a few weeks back to find a ridiculous number of huge angelfish, sharks and remoras (or 'remora sharks' as they had labelled them...). I also got sick of seeing starving mandarins in my local maidenhead and pulled them up on it the other day. Oh and there is an online fish supplier in the UK that is selling 'Nemo tank filler packs' featuring yellow and regal tangs and moorish idols etc with no info on tank size or care requirements, drives me insane!