The whole coral pricing has become a joke

[SIR PATRICK]

Lineage is an absolute waste of time. Let's say your polyps came from Jacques Cousteau himself, does it guarantee that your polyps won't die, get RTN, fungus, pox or die for no obvious reason? No, it doesn't, it's simply a tool to garner more money from your wallet. I have met my fair share of reefers who can recite every polyp name, its street value, lineage and the person's name attached to it, yet most everything he's own has died. Lineage has been debunk over and over again. I think basic husbandry practices trumps lineage any day of the week. Just my opinion.

MUCHO REEF

Agreed 100%

 

[SIR PATRICK]

Ever try to buy concert or sporting event tickets off the street these days?

Nope- rather not get ripped off........

 

[SIR PATRICK]

I have to clarify my post was made a bit tongue in cheek, with a heavy salt of cynicism. I do not agree with with the lack of common ethics of many of those sellers.

I will agree mostly with your argument against lineage. The chop shop people like cornbred use name to build hype and charge more. I would pay more for (one example) a acro frag that has a multiple generation lineage in captivity because I know it is more likely to survive in my tank rather than a cut off of a wild colony that just colored up.

I agree- me too! Probly an extra $20 per good sized frag.

 

[SIR PATRICK]

My favorite is LE "limited edition". This just does not apply to corals. It is even more an attempt to make it seem like the seller has created some product when in fact they are only a middleman.

Limited edition, IME, only is possible when 1 (or very few) buy up all of 1 particular polyp from wholesalers/transhippers "cherry picking"


They make a quick few thousand and magically the price goes down and the same polyps are all of a sudden available-

Much sooner than a payer of $1k per sliver/polyp has time to grow its first frag.

 

[SIR PATRICK]

Oh and remember there's no such thing as "rare" cause if it was it would be banned by CITIES

Couldnt have said it better myself

 

[SIR PATRICK]

Just to play devil's advocate, Think about the cost to run a reef business. They have to rent a space, buy the initial equipment to setup, their utility bills are through the roof, I'm sure they lose livestock, and the list goes on. Plus, without the people selling coral where would we, as hobbyists, get our livestock from. I'm sure most people selling reef livestock take at least a year to break even, if they have a good business. I would also guess that many of them end up failing. So if they see an opportunity to sell a coral for a few hundred bucks, that is not greed that is just business. It is easy romanticize about the purity of something and the love of it, but at the end of day these kind of hobbies exist because there is a business behind them that drives the hobby.

For example, I worked in the the fine dining restaurant business, and I can tell you it is a tough business. Many times we lose money on food specials and we barely make money on those 50 dollar steaks. Like I mean a few dollars. Plus, our utility bills are insane. The one thing that keeps the business going is wine. Yeah at the local liquor store you can buy the chardonnay for 9.99 a bottle, we sell for 7 dollars a glass. that's a HUGE markup, but people accept it because they like the restaurant, and they want it to exist.

(I am a consumer and I in no way have any business relation to any one selling coral, and I have never sold a coral, other than for credit at a LSF.)

Knowing many fish store owners, typical mark up is x3-x5 times and they do very well, considering all the costs and losses involved....



The ones w/ mark ups of x500- x1k rarely have as much overhead as a typical reefer w/ a frag tank with over growth w/o the write offs, buisness incentives, comercial pricing, ect..........

 

[SIR PATRICK]

I believe what was meant was if no one was selling corals, there would be no hobby. And that is the truth.




.

People werent selling corals 20 years ago, the hobby has been around much longer than that.... and is still around.

 

[SIR PATRICK]

Telling newbies how it "used to be" doesn't do anything.

It does though.....

 

[SIR PATRICK]

Only been in this hobby myself now a year

It literally is supply and demand. As long as sellers supply, and people pay the price, it won't go away.

You fell for the "supply and demand" trick- I am sorry.


You should really re-read this entire thread, over again

 

[SIR PATRICK]

You mentioned mentoring a few reefers actually. And as stated I see no reason to get upset over price gouging. Just ignore it which you seem to be doing not knowing the big vendor names I posted.

I know all the names you listed...but this will not be ignored..


If it wasnt for us 20 year plus reefers that went through the trial and error of 6500k MH, plenum systems, under sand/gravel filters, metal rimmed tanks, colorless live rocks, limited livestock (clean up crew included) and the lowest of the low tech early reefers spending years of time, effort, and yes- BIG $$$ over all that time in trial in error the hobby would not be here today.


Some of us were the "guinee pigs" and paid in more ways than one to get to where we are today....information, technology, ect.

And now many of us that built this hobby cant afford the fruits of our efforts because of the greed and comercialism that has become our "hobby"

 

[SIR PATRICK]

Trust me- selling $1k polyps isnt what built this hobby-


Growing a reef when it wasnt impossible did- thats why we are all able to be here.




Now we are killing the hobby w/ chopping up the reef into tiny virtually unsustainable tiny peices for profit..




Wont be ignored.

 

[Tweaked]

Ok, just wow. Not gonna use bold letters or tons of hard returns to get my point across. I am currently getting ready for one amazing show. Those near CT come see how great the prices are, and if you like JFs pieces, come see him too. We have two tables and three tanks on display packed full of homegrown coral. Frag Farmers Market this Saturday- over 30 vendors, and a ton of hobbyists selling.

 

[Tweaked]

I know all the names you listed...but this will not be ignored..


If it wasnt for us 20 year plus reefers that went through the trial and error of 6500k MH, plenum systems, under sand/gravel filters, metal rimmed tanks, colorless live rocks, limited livestock (clean up crew included) and the lowest of the low tech early reefers spending years of time, effort, and yes- BIG $$$ over all that time in trial in error the hobby would not be here today.


Some of us were the "guinee pigs" and paid in more ways than one to get to where we are today....information, technology, ect.

And now many of us that built this hobby cant afford the fruits of our efforts because of the greed and comercialism that has become our "hobby"

Well thanks for all your pioneering. And Can't afford?? In CT, there are 7 of us who have been in this hobby for years, 4 work in the hobby, and 1 has owned a store for over 20 years and his parents did before him. We purchase frags as a group and share amongst each other for free. Once grown even more we sell to locals at really low prices. Are you stating you can't afford frag swap prices? Or frags from locals in your area? Excuse my ignorance, but I must be missing something.

 

[BrianD]

This threads pop up now and then, as do similar threads about prices for "designer" clownfish or "rare" fish.

Arguing about this is about like arguing blue to someone who sees pink and pink to someone who sees blue. You aren't going to change the minds of the most opinionated, and those in the middle aren't going to bother to argue one way or the other.

 

[Tweaked]

Yea, I am just trying to understand. I do know from talking to my buddy that owns the store, that it has changed allot. He stated back when, rocks covered in zoas were nothing, but the shipping made them expensive. Then, hobbyists started getting into better lighting pushed by new companies, and the desire for more colorful polyps exploded. Next, the suppliers got wind of that and started charging more, and the store owner had to ask more. Seems to me there is no one person to blame on these so called price differences between now and "back in the day". And all I'm saying is you don't have to pay those big prices. Join a club and visit one of the 100 shows this country has. There is always someone selling for a reasonable price.

 

[SIR PATRICK]

Well thanks for all your pioneering. And Can't afford?? Are you stating you can't afford frag swap prices? Or frags from locals in your area? Excuse my ignorance, but I must be missing something.

I am saying, as a father of 3, am unable and unwilling to pay $1k/polyp that I am seeing these days, or even the $100/polyp of just a couple years ago. If something isnt said, and the info isnt shared, where will it end?

In no time flat, greed is going to inflate the hobby to the point where very few will have the opportunity to enjoy it in their own homes, and those that do will be so busy chopping it up to recoup their losses..

 

[sde1500]

You're making it sound like all there is are $1k polyps out there....

 

[SIR PATRICK]

Yea, I am just trying to understand. I do know from talking to my buddy that owns the store, that it has changed allot. He stated back when, rocks covered in zoas were nothing, but the shipping made them expensive. Then, hobbyists started getting into better lighting pushed by new companies, and the desire for more colorful polyps exploded. Next, the suppliers got wind of that and started charging more, and the store owner had to ask more. Seems to me there is no one person to blame on these so called price differences between now and "back in the day".

We are in the age of information. "back in the day" we were not.

The cycle you just posted is exactly what we are talking about. Now will be "back in the day" 15 years from now. What will prices be like then at this rate? Im scared to even think about it.

If the information isnt shared- it will never stop. It will just continue to climb.

Lack of information is the one to blame.

 

[MUCHO REEF]

Hey guys, let's pump the brakes, I already have. A warning has been given and I greatly appreciate RC allowing such a spirited discussion/debate on this topic. I think enough valid information and links have been given thus far. I don't want to see this thread locked so a deep breath might be warranted. We can continue hopefully sharing information that newbs and others can chew on and digest. If this thread is locked it will fade into oblivion. I'd urge anyone seeing this thread would read it in its entirety. Carry on gents.

MUCHO

 

[Tweaked]

Well said MUCHO, I honestly believe there are good prices and even free to be had in this hobby still. I also agree there are some higher priced corals without merit as discussed. A buyer beware is a good thing for sure. :thumbsup: