The whole coral pricing has become a joke

[SIR PATRICK]

Oh-

And equipment doesnt propagate on a hobbiest level, let alone a buisness one....

 

[PIPSTER]

And the best scenario to get ripped off.....but yes, best scenario of free market. Buyer beware, as already warned in this post many times.

Buyers need to do a better job of researching prior to purchasing and stop blaming others for their responsibilities. :idea:

This is like blaming banks for making loans to people who couldn't pay the note because they just had to have that $350,000 home, while the government prosecuted those banks if they didn't make those loans. :deadhorse1:

 

[kozmic]

While we might not like the result sometimes, it is actually the market (buyers) that set a price for anything... not the LFS. If people were not paying higher prices, the prices would come down... it is just the way business works.

(and trust me, I shop for the lowest priced but quality product for anything I spend my hard earned dollars on...)

 

[moatdaddy]

I dont fully agree with this simply because you said anything. Importing corals costs money, fees, shipping, handling, paperwork that cannot and will not be avoided. Then the bare cost of the coral. So you have a bare minimum that cannot be sold below unless someone is subsidizing you. I know those numbers. Take those numbers multiply by 2-5 times and thats what you see on the fish at the LFS. Depending on his overhead and margins. The corals your right. Most dont sell the colony but instead chop it and sell it as frags. Lot more money to be made this way but it is not the end all be all. My LFS sells colonies, large acros and zoanthids. While there is a mark up it sure is not insanely high.

As far as small photoshopped frags i completely agree though. a $300 frag is only set at 300 because of the buyer.

My point is there is two sides to this issues and not everyone is on the bad side. Some people are delivering awesome corals in large sizes for fair prices. Granted higher than 20 years ago but that is common.

 

[kozmic]

Yeah, the price of anything (at least in the good 'ol U-S of A), is what the overall market will bare...not what a few people hope to pay for that product. Sometimes that price means a person/company is making a ton of profit, or sometimes it means that a person/company will go out of business if they continue to produce something that is more expensive to produce than the market will pay...

Have you ever looked up the true cost of producing an iPhone vs what the end consumer pays?

 

[moatdaddy]

No politics in reefcentral. Must resist the urge. I agree though.

I like battle corals. That guy seems legit and while pricey its pest free. Also a new guy on eBay is selling non photo shopped colonies at frag prices pretty much.

Just like dori I keep on swimming. Learning more about the hobby and those who supply it.

 

[kozmic]

No politics in reefcentral. Must resist the urge. I agree though.

lol - apologies... I didn't mean it in a political way, just that YMMV depending where you live around the world as a qualifier to my comment, because RC has a pretty diverse audience.

 

[MUCHO REEF]

From what I have seen is that a very well established local reef club has been over run with chop shop operations selling frags of the latest and greatest designer corals. Their frag setup is larger than their DT and are always the first to jump on a mature colony that comes up for sale. They sell fresh frags just glued to a plug and never encrusted most of which suffer RTN after arrival to their new home.

Personally, this is one of the things we see in reefing today that really bothers so many of us. Most everyone is a collector now, a collector of frags who frag their frags for pure greed when they advertise these micro frags for skyhigh prices. If they aren't fragging frags, they're ordering mother colonies and fragging them instantly, slapping a name on it plus their name, then calling them rare, ultra, designer, high end, grade A, limited edition, unique and Monique :lol:. Selling any coral on a plug that is still white, not encrusted thus increasing their chance of sure mortality in just unconscionable for any respectable reefer to do in my opinion.

I never would sell a frag that wasn't encrusted and have never sold one for more than $20. I don't follow the designer names and don't care to. I cut my teeth on SPS while stationed in Germany and belonged to a local reef club there, Latin was my language of choice for coral ID! I learned from some of the pioneers of the Berlin method in a culture that promoted providing the best environment for a corals growth and natural structure development.

You sir are a rare breed and it is great to hear this type of morality in reefing today. Much respect for everything you just stated as I agree with 1000 %.:thumbsup:

IMHO Most of the designer frags are what they are from new growth color variation from repeatedly propagating to the point that no one knows what a mature colony would look like! These designer are destroying the hobby, they do not care about proper identification or what structureal form a mature colony will take allowing a conscientious hobbiest to place it in the proper position for ideal flow, light and structure formation!! They only care about how much money they can get for the pretty colores that show up under some unnatural blue LED lighting with a little photoshop tweeking.

Wow brother, where can I send my offering, I love the message and the messenger. This mess and these skyhigh prices are killing the hobby and many could care less with the multitude of illogical excuses being given.


http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2316723

Repetitive, premature, improper and hyper excessively handled and fragged corals are just a few of the reasons I see so many threads asking for help with their dying FRAGS. It's everywhere and it's something we very seldom use to see but now it's everywhere.

Their margins seem to be paramount and the hobby as a whole, well, they seem to care less about. I read a thread recently of a reefer who just purchased a frag and posted a question wanting to know the name of it. Why, because he stated he wanted to frag his new frag to sell a polyp in the name of profits. How sad, I mean where does it end. Sure it's his/her coral and they are free to do with it as they please, but these lies, skyhigh prices and false claims are fueling the urge to make a dollar over the possible and most often mortality of a perfectly healthy coral all in the name of saying "look at me and how much I made".

I mentored 10 reefers who came into the hobby but all decided to leave when they saw these silly prices and names. 6 of the 10 were shocked when I showed them my tank and online pictures of mother colonies. Many of these reefers had only seen frags and thought this is how they were collected from the wild and never knew they could grow into mega mother colonies. Many new reefers in the hobby today are also still unaware of this.




Rant over!

My friend, it's no rant, it's the truth regardless of what others who weren't in the hobby 10 years ago when this started have to say.


MUCHO REEF

 

[MUCHO REEF]

The newest Coral Magazine page 51 has a good article on the latest craze Rhodactis Mushrooms and the amazing price some coral collectors will pay to have these. There are so many cheap great looking corals for newbies to purchase, the idea of a few expensive corals keeping newbies out is not true. Unless it is one that has to have the best of the best. And as far as comparing to cars, most antique cars can be cloned to look better than the original.

This is a prime example of what Anthony Calfo speaks of in his article, the latest craze and the newest fad. The polyp pimps know all they have to do is create hype and many will follow. These Rhodactis mushrooms have been around for 20 years, ( see post 433 of this thread ) Yes, the ones with the bubbles on top that people are going ape over. I've owned them for over 15 years, but I didn't give them a silly name. But now, some store and some person has claimed them and calls them rare.:lol2::lol2::lol2: People come on, stop listening to the con, start reading at the 3rd paragrapgh of A. Callfo's article below. Read the entire article for even more gainful knowledge.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-02/ac/index.php

So newbs or reefers who know better and don't buy into the con are relegated to only buying the dule and old common coral that have been around for 20 years, REALLY ? So only the pimps, shillers and chopshoppers and those who will pay hundreds and thousands for a frag can buy anything of with color on the market? This is what these prices and names have created, the two percenters !!!!! :hammer:

Or haven't you heard about the $6,000 rhodactis polyp or the two $2,500 zoanthid polyps or the $999.00 polyp that someone offered/sold/bought that so many others are excited about, bragging on, hyping, excited for the seller and can't wait to be the next big profitier with his name in lights.

MOOCH

 

[MUCHO REEF]

"There is a huge difference between natural blue and the "blue glow" of tank lights."

I couldn't agree more, but.......

 

[MUCHO REEF]

rant alert

I get that people want to make money on corals but it's gotten to the point it's more about greed than making money. The zoa trend is probably the most comical of all. When I see 15-100 per polyp, I start wondering who in the hell is buying this? You can't even get a good colony of anything anymore because everyone wants to cut everything into small pieces and charge what they use to for large versions. I saw this "Nuke" green torch for 300 dollars. I paid 300 for our Huskie and she's a hell of a lot more entertaining than a torch coral. lol. Don't even get me into the renaming of corals. "Incredible Hulk Zoa" "Darth Maul zoa" "24k Torch" Give me a break. Last rant. The 40 dollar PURPLE HAZE mushrooms. These should have a street value less than a damsel. I had so many purple mushrooms in my tank I couldn't even see the other corals. They grow like weeds. I guess it all comes down what people are willing to pay for it. This hobby has a lot of people with more money than smarts, no offense, I'm one of them most of the time.

rant over

Back on topic, with over 27,000 views and some great info on the previous page.

 

[MUCHO REEF]

Buyers need to do a better job of researching prior to purchasing and stop blaming others for their responsibilities. :idea:

Really? So a once family oriented hobby where we all use to help each other and give a word of guidance and advice along the way as was given to each of us back when we were new, is now, "if you were taken by a polyp pimp, it's just your own fault". How cold and callus we have become in this hobby.

This is like blaming banks for making loans to people who couldn't pay the note because they just had to have that $350,000 home, while the government prosecuted those banks if they didn't make those loans. :deadhorse1:

A horrible and none applicable analogy. wow !!!!

Mucho

 

[Tweaked]

The current rising of temps and record bleaching event surely is not going to help the situation.

http://www.noaa.gov/el-niño-prolongs-longest-global-coral-bleaching-event

 

[MUCHO REEF]

The current rising of temps and record bleaching event surely is not going to help the situation.

http://www.noaa.gov/el-niño-prolongs-longest-global-coral-bleaching-event

Yes, I've already added that to the list of reasons/excuses being given to justify selling 2 zoanthid polyps for $ 2,500, a single zoa polyp for $ 999.00, 3 twenty year old polyps for $ 60.00, 1 mushoom for $ 6,000 and I could go on and on for a week. Clove polyps are now limited edition LOL. Common everyday corals that have been around since Christ are all fragged down to 3 polyps and they're all 5, 10, 20 bucks and up per polyp, yep, gotta be that darn bleaching. Everything with color is sky high and anyone who doesn't know the truth is waiting to be taken by these lies. Maybe it's the reason so many are calling everything rare, must be because of bleaching right?

The excuse list from post # 451 http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2556733&page=19

1. It's what the market will bear.
2. Oh it's just supply and demand.
3. The cost of reefing has gone up
4. It's due to the economy. Really?
5. Gas prices are higher. ( I heard this 3 years ago ), and how much is gas today?
6. It's just a cycle, you have to wait till it cycles downward again. Wow, for coral?
7. The high prices are due to advancement it reef technology. But that should lower cost.
8. These sky high prices are good for reefing. So why are so many forums dead all over the web. Why have so many reefers I know informed me this is why they are leaving or have left?
9. The hobby is growing faster than the supply. "Now I have a headache."
10. There's a limited supply of corals. No, there isn't.
11. Corals grow so slow, at least the rare ultra ones do and that's why they are so expensive. Really?

There were no catastrophic bleaching events in every ocean that these corals came from in 2004/2005 when these lies and sky high prices began. It's pure greed. :hammer:

Where and when does it end.

Mucho

 

[sde1500]

The excuse list from post # 451

1. It's what the market will bear. People are paying thus market bearing it.

2. Oh it's just supply and demand. -Not sure why you have an issue with this, it literally is what it is.

3. The cost of reefing has gone up -if you say prices are higher, now haven't costs gone up?

4. It's due to the economy. Really? -I got nothing, I'll agree with you there

5. Gas prices are higher. ( I heard this 3 years ago ), and how much is gas today? -Shipping costs are indeed higher. Most prices with oil involved are very much downward inelastic. Meaning that they readily adjust higher, but are less willing to reduce as their cost inputs go down. Have you seen airline seat prices go down?

6. It's just a cycle, you have to wait till it cycles downward again. Wow, for coral? -meh thats odd

7. The high prices are due to advancement it reef technology. But that should lower cost. -Agreed, not doing any mental gymnastics on that one.

8. These sky high prices are good for reefing. So why are so many forums dead all over the web. Why have so many reefers I know informed me this is why they are leaving or have left?-Also skipping haha

9. The hobby is growing faster than the supply. Now I have a headache. -you seem quick to dismiss this anecdotal answer with your own also anecdotal response. Curious if you have anything to the contrary? Went to a frag swap this year, last year 800 attendees, this year 1k a new record after 9 years. New to Hobby section here tends to have the most activity, seems to lend some credence.

10. There's a limited supply of corals. No, there isn't.-Vast majority of wild reefs are bleaching, care to point me to your unlimited supply? Just because corals grow doesn't mean there is an unlimited supply.

11. Corals grow so slow, at least the rare ultra ones do and that's why they are so expensive. Really? -I added 3 frags, in the same area of zoanthids. one that commands a really high price has yet to add any new polyps, but it is starting to. One that commands a high price as well is budding off new polyps very fast, as is one of the cheaper ones I got. There are posts all over the forum where people with amazing tanks have fast growing pieces, and others that barely grow. not sure why you'd outright dismiss this.

There were no catastrophic bleaching events in every ocean that these corals came from in 2004/2005 when these lies and sky high prices began. It's pure greed. :hammer: I beg to differ https://www.researchgate.net/profil...redictions/links/0fcfd4fcdba7c39e6e000000.pdf

Where and when does it end.

Mucho

 

[Servillius]

Yes, I've already added that to the list of reasons/excuses being given to justify selling 2 zoanthid polyps for $ 2,500, a single zoa polyp for $ 999.00, 3 twenty year old polyps for $ 60.00, 1 mushoom for $ 6,000 and I could go on and on for a week. Clove polyps are now limited edition LOL. Common everyday corals that have been around since Christ are all fragged down to 3 polyps and they're all 5, 10, 20 bucks and up per polyp, yep, gotta be that darn bleaching. Everything with color is sky high and anyone who doesn't know the truth is waiting to be taken by these lies. Maybe it's the reason so many are calling everything rare, must be because of bleaching right?

The excuse list from post # 451 http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2556733&page=19

1. It's what the market will bear.
2. Oh it's just supply and demand.
3. The cost of reefing has gone up
4. It's due to the economy. Really?
5. Gas prices are higher. ( I heard this 3 years ago ), and how much is gas today?
6. It's just a cycle, you have to wait till it cycles downward again. Wow, for coral?
7. The high prices are due to advancement it reef technology. But that should lower cost.
8. These sky high prices are good for reefing. So why are so many forums dead all over the web. Why have so many reefers I know informed me this is why they are leaving or have left?
9. The hobby is growing faster than the supply. "Now I have a headache."
10. There's a limited supply of corals. No, there isn't.
11. Corals grow so slow, at least the rare ultra ones do and that's why they are so expensive. Really?

There were no catastrophic bleaching events in every ocean that these corals came from in 2004/2005 when these lies and sky high prices began. It's pure greed. :hammer:

Where and when does it end.

Mucho

Well that settles it. We have a definitive ruling so lets pack the evidence away and call it a day. Everyone that charges a price that differs from the approved price list promulgated here on Reef Central will now and forever be judged a morally repugnant person.

I'm curious though, if this is such a great scam, can't we all get in on it, get rich, and not have to worry ourselves further on the issue? I want to try that. I can live with a little moral opprobrium, so tell me how its done.

How exactly does this getting rich trick work? How do I get the coral I'm going to sell? How much do I need? What investments will I need to make? What sales outlets do I need to set up? Is it really more profitable charging $2000 for GSP frags and hoping for a sucker than charging a price that gets you return business?

Every argument out there is a mere excuse. Price is set solely by the mendacity of despicable men.

How does one join them and get rich? Show us the math.

 

[sde1500]

Well that settles it. We have a definitive ruling so lets pack the evidence away and call it a day. Everyone that charges a price that differs from the approved price list promulgated here on Reef Central will now and forever be judged a morally repugnant person.



I'm curious though, if this is such a great scam, can't we all get in on it, get rich, and not have to worry ourselves further on the issue? I want to try that. I can live with a little moral opprobrium, so tell me how its done.



How exactly does this getting rich trick work? How do I get the coral I'm going to sell? How much do I need? What investments will I need to make? What sales outlets do I need to set up? Is it really more profitable charging $2000 for GSP frags and hoping for a sucker than charging a price that gets you return business?



Every argument out there is a mere excuse. Price is set solely by the mendacity of despicable men.



How does one join them and get rich? Show us the math.

While I agree that the abject dismissal of every point to the contrary is puzzling and possibly a little annoying I can't say I agree with your tone here. People can have different beliefs than you without you being a jerk. You don't have to comment, keep it civil if you do.

 

[Protoavis]

Well that settles it. We have a definitive ruling so lets pack the evidence away and call it a day. Everyone that charges a price that differs from the approved price list promulgated here on Reef Central will now and forever be judged a morally repugnant person.

I'm curious though, if this is such a great scam, can't we all get in on it, get rich, and not have to worry ourselves further on the issue? I want to try that. I can live with a little moral opprobrium, so tell me how its done.

How exactly does this getting rich trick work? How do I get the coral I'm going to sell? How much do I need? What investments will I need to make? What sales outlets do I need to set up? Is it really more profitable charging $2000 for GSP frags and hoping for a sucker than charging a price that gets you return business?

Every argument out there is a mere excuse. Price is set solely by the mendacity of despicable men.

How does one join them and get rich? Show us the math.

In Australia it can be as simple as registering a business, using those details to get stock from a whole sealer then chop shopping everything for sale on Facebook. Granted the industry is a little less crazy here, a lot of things don't get named like they do on US sites. Still have widely different prices depending on where you shop and often times those prices are 300%+ that of the wholesale.

 

[Servillius]

While I agree that the abject dismissal of every point to the contrary is puzzling and possibly a little annoying I can't say I agree with your tone here. People can have different beliefs than you without you being a jerk. You don't have to comment, keep it civil if you do.

Fair, so for those whose tone has been respectful I apologize. You do see however that being accused of being base and greedy can also be a little offensive to some? The implication that anyone who does business in a way inconsistent with the preferences of the speaker can only be doing it as the result of some moral failing since any good and reasonable argument is mere dishonesty; can we agree there is something to that tone as well?

 

[Servillius]

In Australia it can be as simple as registering a business, using those details to get stock from a whole sealer then chop shopping everything for sale on Facebook. Granted the industry is a little less crazy here, a lot of things don't get named like they do on US sites. Still have widely different prices depending on where you shop and often times those prices are 300%+ that of the wholesale.

Australians are incapable of realizing they could undercut that person at 250%? How about 200%? Is it possible at 150% the cost of running a business makes this no longer a worthwhile enterprise?

If this is such a profitable venture why aren't these foolish wholesalers taking advantage of it themselves? Do they just lack for business acumen?