The whole coral pricing has become a joke

[EMeyer]

This naming business isn't unique to corals or zoanthids. In the flower & vegetable world, new varieties, slightly modified varieties or genetic hybrids are often given names. This has been going on for over a century. It's often a derivative of a name of the breeder's relative, but usually it's a descriptive name like "moon beam" or "firecracker" or whatever.

Youre absolutely right about the flower and vegetable breeding world.

The important difference is that if you buy an Ile de France tulip, it actually is an Ile de France tulip. Buy two of these from two different sellers and you have two of the same thing. Plant breeders take this stuff seriously.

In the coral world its all bullshit. Two different green zoas are both called Dragon Eyes. No one actually maintains records or pedigrees. Its all nonsense, smoke and mirrors, snake oil.

The only exception would be if you buy it from a large aquaculture facility e.g. ORA they are likely maintaining records within the company. But you can be damn sure their version of Dragon Eyes is completely different from your LFS Dragon eyes.

Which leads to

The next type of names are the ones that convey provenance. This is a frag of the "original" purple monster or whatever.

No, no, no. Thats precisely the point. These names imply its a frag of the "original" purple monster or whatever -- and there is no evidence whatsoever to back it up.

It is literally exactly like my black lab example. People are grabbing random black dogs, calling them pedigreed Black Labradors, and you people are defending this practice.

Its false advertising and we the consumers should not stand for it. When a seller claims this is a frag of the original purple monster we should demand evidence or call it for what it is -- BS.

Here's the part where I think folks keep losing the plot. There's a bunch of people running around the country insisting social justice requires that when I hire someone to dig a hole I have to pay them $15 an hour for doing something any able bodied human could probably do. I'm not going to argue the point. Who knows, perhaps they're right.

I'm fairly sure it's the same folks however who, when faced with a dude investing his own money in a business then working for years to develop the skills to deliver a product to market that the market actually wants, insist he make no more than $3 an hour doing it.

Call me crazy but shouldn't we want people to create value and derive a benefit from doing so?

Not sure why you bring politics into it. I like free markets too, and $15 minimum wage is obviously silly.

None of that has anything to do with false advertising.

If the sellers' business plan requires false advertising to avoid working for 3$ an hour, they need a better business plan. Its not an excuse deliberately engage in false advertising.

 

[Servillius]

'Ahem, I guess you didn't notice my location? (lol)

Haha, my mistake. Glad it didn't rain much today or I was going to fish out my inches to cubits conversion chart and start looking around for mated pairs of the local fauna.

 

[Servillius]

Youre absolutely right about the flower and vegetable breeding world.

The important difference is that if you buy an Ile de France tulip, it actually is an Ile de France tulip. Buy two of these from two different sellers and you have two of the same thing. Plant breeders take this stuff seriously.

In the coral world its all bullshit. Two different green zoas are both called Dragon Eyes. No one actually maintains records or pedigrees. Its all nonsense, smoke and mirrors, snake oil.

The only exception would be if you buy it from a large aquaculture facility e.g. ORA they are likely maintaining records within the company. But you can be damn sure their version of Dragon Eyes is completely different from your LFS Dragon eyes.

Which leads to


No, no, no. Thats precisely the point. These names imply its a frag of the "original" purple monster or whatever -- and there is no evidence whatsoever to back it up.

It is literally exactly like my black lab example. People are grabbing random black dogs, calling them pedigreed Black Labradors, and you people are defending this practice.

Its false advertising and we the consumers should not stand for it. When a seller claims this is a frag of the original purple monster we should demand evidence or call it for what it is -- BS.

Not sure why you bring politics into it. I like free markets too, and $15 minimum wage is obviously silly.

None of that has anything to do with false advertising.

If the sellers' business plan requires false advertising to avoid working for 3$ an hour, they need a better business plan. Its not an excuse deliberately engage in false advertising.

I would ask you to reread my post carefully. I don't think we disagree on much. I don't bring politics into it (note I didn't offer an opinion on the $15 an hour minimum wage). I've also been very careful to make clear nothing here is intended as a defense of fraud, just an observation that I don't think the majority of the businesses out there are fraudsters.

As for the provenance issue I think I made clear that these name imply but do not prove provenance and so are in fact open to fraud. If I didn't I should have.

My intent overall is to demonstrate there are always dishonest actors out there. They're not representative and probably aren't successful for very long.

All I was trying to do in the naming post was make the point that there are non-malicious reasons to name and the mere act of giving something a name does not automatically triple the price.

Does a name have an effect on price? Sure! That's why we drive Mustangs or S6s instead of Red Car with 8 cylinder and White Car with 8 cylinder.

 

[tommyboynj]

I didnt relize how bad the price gouging thing was until i attended a swap a few years ago. There was a mix of vendors, local guys with garage run operations, small lessor know online vendors and a few of the "Elite" guys. I noticed several things. 1) You could buy essentially the same "looking" coral from a few of the vendors and prices vary wildly. 2) you only needed to hang around until the end of the swap when everyone was trying to clear their stock by reducing prices to see how much mark up there is on some stuff. 3) There is always someone that will spend 1000 on quarter sized mushroom.

Im lucky in that i have network of reefers where i can get healthy, aquaculture and in some cases "high end" stuff for cheap or free. These people only ask that when i frag stuff, i pay it forward to the next person. When i do spend a bit of money by getting aquaculture stuff from hobbyists on the boards you can bet that ill never charge more for a frag than i paid. And thats what gets me. Some of the named corals that get sold and are frags from the sellers "private stock" just didnt cost that much in the first place. They've recouped the cost of the initial frag over and over and still charge over inflated prices and they can, because someone is willing to pay extra because the name of the coral has some kind of "prestige".

I dont think its unfair, its business. As a consumer its your responsibility to educate yourself. However, I do question whether its the right thing to do. Charging $400 for a half inch frag over and over when your customer can by something that looks the same elsewhere for $50. The person selling it for $50 is either taking a massive loss or that $400 frag is way over priced and as a customer, thats your decision to make

 

[d-man]

Servilus, I understa the old school names abosulety. They have been around for a while now. But everything gets named now. Some deserve some names, I get it, ie Walt Disney. That is a rediculous piece and deserves some distinction. But every piece now is named, even if it deserves a name or not.
Someone stated it way earlier, but it used to be a simple " multicolor tenius" or r"ainbow milli" or "tricolor acro". Now it's an "abc 58 color taste the rainbow super duper highly rare limited edition extremely fuzzy smooth lizard skin acro"
5 years ago distinguishing corals was so much easier, and imo, as well as others, better and had more validity. That is all

 

[Tweaked]

I didnt relize how bad the price gouging thing was until i attended a swap a few years ago. There was a mix of vendors, local guys with garage run operations, small lessor know online vendors and a few of the "Elite" guys. I noticed several things. 1) You could buy essentially the same "looking" coral from a few of the vendors and prices vary wildly. 2) you only needed to hang around until the end of the swap when everyone was trying to clear their stock by reducing prices to see how much mark up there is on some stuff. 3) There is always someone that will spend 1000 on quarter sized mushroom.

Im lucky in that i have network of reefers where i can get healthy, aquaculture and in some cases "high end" stuff for cheap or free. These people only ask that when i frag stuff, i pay it forward to the next person. When i do spend a bit of money by getting aquaculture stuff from hobbyists on the boards you can bet that ill never charge more for a frag than i paid. And thats what gets me. Some of the named corals that get sold and are frags from the sellers "private stock" just didnt cost that much in the first place. They've recouped the cost of the initial frag over and over and still charge over inflated prices and they can, because someone is willing to pay extra because the name of the coral has some kind of "prestige".

I dont think its unfair, its business. As a consumer its your responsibility to educate yourself. However, I do question whether its the right thing to do. Charging $400 for a half inch frag over and over when your customer can by something that looks the same elsewhere for $50. The person selling it for $50 is either taking a massive loss or that $400 frag is way over priced and as a customer, thats your decision to make

This!!!!

 

[Ohioreef1700]

Check out www.alldelightcorals.com this guy is crazy high priced and sells his stuff under the most edited pics possible and names that are a mile long. I just laugh at his website

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[MUCHO REEF]

They're all doing it and it's beyond laughable.

Thousands have viewed this thread and their eyes have been opened and no longer paying these silly greed driven prices.

 

[sde1500]

Check out www.alldelightcorals.com this guy is crazy high priced and sells his stuff under the most edited pics possible and names that are a mile long. I just laugh at his website

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Here, now you can go laugh at the guys thread too, since the owner was/is an active member here. http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2199177

This thread going to just turn into a crusade against any website that, in your opinion, overcharges?

 

[MUCHO REEF]

One of the frustrating things about this discussion is theres no objectively right price, so debating whether the current prices are too high or not is fairly pointless (although they obviously are).

Oh but there is. The problem is so many new reefers who have become reefers after 2004 when these lies and the greed began, aren't aware that zoanthids for example were dirt cheap post 2004. New reefers simply aren't aware of this. Look for yourself below and note the dates and the prices......and not a single picture was posted and nothing had a NAME.....hmmmmm !!!!! I've sold hundreds of frags this way to the four corners of this country.

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208268

No one, no one sold them by the polyp.....EVER, and only one had a name. It's shameful to hear the lies being told all over the web by reefers who weren't even in the hobby back then for the sole purpose of taking your money and telling you something is rare . I just viewed a frag for sale as extremely rare and seldom seen.....lol....I had them and gave them away 15 years ago.

I'm glad to see this thread continually being bumped to enlightened those who might fall for the con. Read post #207 of this thread on page 9. It scares them to know that reefers are seeing this for what it really is and now refusing to be ripped off. They will defend these greedy prices until the oceans run dry.

But the named coral thing needs to be addressed separately. Named corals are a problem not because of the impacts on prices but because its bullshit. Two different red zoanthids are called "candy apple" or *** ever. This implies they are the same thing, propagated from the same colony originally. Which is of course complete nonsense.


Exactly......but these names are in fact affecting prices. Some of these names are as long as sentences. Anything to create hype to get you to fork over $ 5 to hundreds of dollars for a polyp.......a polyp people. Don't ever buy them by the polyp.

Wholesalers bring in new shipments of zoanthids every week. A retailer buys a colony, decides that this week's green zoas look like last week's green zoas, and calls them "gorilla nipples" or "radioactive dragon eyes" or *** ever.

Please listen to this guy and all the others who are responding to these silly names and sky high prices.

This is literally exactly as dishonest as if a dog breeder were to catch two black dogs on the side of the road and call them both "purebred black labs". Its exactly the same situation, but for some reason reefers accept it.

Anytime someone tries to sell you a "named" coral they are lying to you and you should make your purchasing decision accordingly.

I agree.

 

[MUCHO REEF]

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208268


.....and look at post # 7 in my link and sale thread above from 2003. Scroll down and look at the number of polyps on my frags that were on live rock, not tiny plugs. Many are the same polyps being sold today and the only difference is you're paying $30 or more for 1 or 2 polyps today and in 2004 you would get 20 to 25 polyps. Hmmmm.......lies + sky high prices = Greed ! Yet those who stand to gain the most from this con game will lay out a dozen bizarre and ficticous reasons to justify this greed throughout this hobby. LAUGHABLE! !!!!

 

[Ohioreef1700]

Do we mention the bounce mushroom crazy a dime size frag for 400-900 dollars ?? Insane to me

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[MUCHO REEF]

http://s.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2558655

These mushrooms have been around for many many years. Again....someone hyped them and called them rare....gave them a silly name...
created a frenzy.....grabbed a digital camera.....super saturated them in blue light......took a picture......made up a few lies......and again.....here we are. So many are proud to see these prices being paid......ask yourselves why? They are even fragging a single polyp on a frag plug to create another frag and gluing that to another plug . Greed causes this...... I prefer to grow all of my mushrooms into mature colonies, but that takes time, knowledge, patience and good husbandry. You're right my friend, it's just crazy/insane, while others will rush here to promote, encourage, justify and buy into this hype. Again, ask yourself why?

What I find really troubling is that there is a generation of new reefers who have been convinced by the Polyp Pimps that there is an official price list floating around for these corals that justifies and details their going rate and how rare they are . People, there isn't a list as it's all made up to gouge these unsuspecting reefers while the sellers and those who hype these prices for them sit back and laugh at the buyer whom just got played.

MUCHO REEF

 

[reef thief]

Acro frags shouldn't cost more than cocaine. Seriously, no one is risking their freedom or lives to get corals from point A to point G. If the middle men did more to self propagate they could sell more for less, maintain costumer loyalty and expand their businesses. I used to get all of my corals for free from diving and even walking around the rocks in a harbor. Beautiful soft corals too! I feel like my fish are really the stars in my tank and I'm just trying to give them a 5 star hotels for them to live in....and then die someday only to be replaced by the same kind and name it the same name. I had a box fish named "Chickapea" that got stressed out and killed every fish in my tank. I replaced half of them that week from 2 dives.

 

[reef thief]

Does anyone know where I could buy a nautilus?

 

[MUCHO REEF]

Acro frags shouldn't cost more than cocaine. Seriously, no one is risking their freedom or lives to get corals from point A to point G. If the middle men did more to self propagate they could sell more for less, maintain costumer loyalty and expand their businesses. I used to get all of my corals for free from diving and even walking around the rocks in a harbor. Beautiful soft corals too! I feel like my fish are really the stars in my tank and I'm just trying to give them a 5 star hotels for them to live in....and then die someday only to be replaced by the same kind and name it the same name. I had a box fish named "Chickapea" that got stressed out and killed every fish in my tank. I replaced half of them that week from 2 dives.

I have no idea what cocaine cost, but many are just waiting for their chance to sell a single mushroom for $6.000. Hold on a second, it has already happened.:hammer:

 

[MUCHO REEF]

Naming every coral is rediculous. So im thinking about getting a few transhipments and naming them all. Since they are all maricultured, they won't have been named yet, oh wait, how bout their scientific name?!
No, I'll give them names like Dmans douche Mille, or Dmans Dunkin donuts. Whatever I name it, I'll charge $200 a frag, cuz it has a name.
That's the rediculous part, not the price(which I still think is crazy) but the fact that everything gets named now.

Ironically speaking, a friend of a friend ask for my help in solving a serious reefing issues which was causing polyp retraction last weekend. Upon arriving it was clear that a serious nuisance algae issue was the problem. The guy spent the first 15 minutes naming every single 2 polyp zoa frag in his tank. All 20 lined up in 2 rows like militia ready to do battle. He bragged on their rarity, price, name, colors and the person whose name was attached to them. Twice I recited my remedy to solve his tank issues, yet he continued to repeat their names, prices yadda yadda as if this was impressive somehow. He then told me he knew the name of every polyp listed on a ID web sight, so I left

He took great pride and an enormous amount of time to learn silly names, yet he couldn't ID any of the 4 seperate blooms of nuisance algae that were choking his polyps to near death, of which he informed me of their total cost, $565 total !!!!!!!!!

This is an example of what these silly names will do to a young reefers whose focuses more on these names than basic husbandry 101.

MUCHO

PS. By the way, I had to view top down to see his polyps and just as I expected, all were common polyps seen readily for many years in the hobby. I gave him a call today again trying to help salvage what was left. He informed me that it was too late.

 

[splix]

geeze I hate named corals. It's the #1 thing I hate most about the hobby. So stupid. I love how divers den doesnt even try. It's just "bushy, tabling, bottle brush, etc etc."

I have 3 named corals in my tank. 1. I got for free for a trade. 2nd I got from a friend because he bought a colony and snipped me a frag for cheap, 3rd I got from LFS that named it. He sold it to me for a reasonable cost ($40, he charges everyone else $200) and I only bought it because the mother colony was amazing looking.

 

[MUCHO REEF]

I mean what and where is the value add ? The excuse that they're needed so one knows what their buying is lame. How on earth did we do it before names in 2004? We just sent or posted a picture, problem solved

But often, we didn't even need or use pictures....wow !!
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208268

If you only have one tank, you can't possibly own every morph there is for sale, yet this has become the new reefers creed served up by those pimpin. Buy as many 1 and 2 polyp overpriced frags and place them in racks or rows. Pray they live and if a new polyp shows up, hack it, and sell it for more then you paid for them.......over and over and over again. Thus the title of this thread, " The whole coral pricing has become a joke".:deadhorse1:

 

[Reel North]

I mean what and where is the value add ? The excuse that they're needed so one knows what their buying is lame. How on earth did we do it before names in 2004? We just sent or posted a picture, problem solved

But often, we didn't even need or use pictures....wow !!
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208268

If you only have one tank, you can't possibly own every morph there is for sale, yet this has become the new reefers creed served up by those pimpin. Buy as many 1 and 2 polyp overpriced frags and place them in racks or rows. Pray they live and if a new polyp shows up, hack it, and sell it for more then you paid for them.......over and over and over again. Thus the title of this thread, " The whole coral pricing has become a joke".:deadhorse1:

MUCHO FOR PRESIDENT!

Well said sir