The whole coral pricing has become a joke

Just to play devil's advocate, Think about the cost to run a reef business. They have to rent a space, buy the initial equipment to setup, their utility bills are through the roof, I'm sure they lose livestock, and the list goes on. Plus, without the people selling coral where would we, as hobbyists, get our livestock from. I'm sure most people selling reef livestock take at least a year to break even, if they have a good business. I would also guess that many of them end up failing. So if they see an opportunity to sell a coral for a few hundred bucks, that is not greed that is just business. It is easy romanticize about the purity of something and the love of it, but at the end of day these kind of hobbies exist because there is a business behind them that drives the hobby.

For example, I worked in the the fine dining restaurant business, and I can tell you it is a tough business. Many times we lose money on food specials and we barely make money on those 50 dollar steaks. Like I mean a few dollars. Plus, our utility bills are insane. The one thing that keeps the business going is wine. Yeah at the local liquor store you can buy the chardonnay for 9.99 a bottle, we sell for 7 dollars a glass. that's a HUGE markup, but people accept it because they like the restaurant, and they want it to exist.

(I am a consumer and I in no way have any business relation to any one selling coral, and I have never sold a coral, other than for credit at a LSF.)

Nothing......absolutely nothing you mentioned above was a determining factor which lead to these silly names and sky high prices in 04/05. It wasn't the economy, it wasn't supply and demand and it wasn't a sudden increase cost of running a business. I know, because I and many who have posted in this thread against gouging were here as well. It was price gouging, lies and opportunistic greed. Explain to me how one guy can sell 2 polyps for $ 800 and swear it's rare and the going rate, and another is selling it for $100 and still a third guy is selling them for even less? My gosh people, if you're new to the hobby, stop believing these lies the pimps are telling you and ask someone who's been reefing for 20 + years.

I grow zoanthids like grass in my sleep and have given many of these same polyps away that you are paying hundreds for.

MUCHO
 
Bottom line is can you blame all these companies for cashing in on those with thick wallets and not a care of cost?

Bro, REALLY ? Do you realize how many reefers who were newbs who have left the hobby because people started buying up 50 polyp mother colonies for $60 and chopping up a perfectly healrhy colony a create 45 one polyp frags that they then sell for $30 each? I said 45 frags as often these inexperience reefers will kill many healthy polyps just to create frags. I have been mentoring 10 of said reefers for 2 years now who came into the hobby but left because of this price gouging. Reefing isn't simply for those with " thick wallets and not a care for cost" as you stated above, or is it?

MOOCH
 
I haven't read the whole thread yet, but I will. My take on it is that the guys that are getting these huge prices for corals have a few things going for them that not everyone is willing to, or even can do:
-Great photography
-Using bluer lighting that many hobbiests use
-Running ULN / zeo systems

If you are running those lighting parameters or a zeo system, you are probbly better off buying from someone that is doing the same. However, I suspect that there are people that are wowed by colors that they won't be able to keep.

They aren't doing anything that others haven't done and been doing for years. I don't need any of that to grow polyps, trust me.
 
I don't think he did that at all. Also people say you never work a day in your life if you love what you do/do what you love. You talk as if the only way you ever should have a frag is due to growing out your tank. But if you love the hobby and manage to make it your livelihood then I see nothing wrong with that. We know how expensive this hobby is. Building a big enough setup to make a living off of must cost a fortune.

So you saw the bolded part of the quote?

BTW making a livelihood isn't the same thing as a hobby. Additionally I set up my first nano for less than CAD$200 it yielded many frags that I gave away for free, but of course we were a small tight knit group that supported one another back then as opposed to a bunch of greedy, lying, sleazy polyp pimps.
 
I believe what was meant was if no one was selling corals, there would be no hobby. And that is the truth. Sure the hobby and interest in corals encourages businesses. Yet if the businesses didn't exist, the hobby wouldn't get far.

Also clearly didn't understand what I meant about doing what you love but whatever. Honestly this thread has beaten the topic to death a few times over. Lots of complaints but won't go anywhere. Telling newbies how it "used to be" doesn't do anything.
 
I believe what was meant was if no one was selling corals, there would be no hobby. And that is the truth.

But this thread isn't about selling......it's about gouging which you support right?

Sure the hobby and interest in corals encourages businesses. Yet if the businesses didn't exist, the hobby wouldn't get far.

Again, this thread isn't about free enterprise. GOUGING !!!!!!

Also clearly didn't understand what I meant about doing what you love but whatever. Honestly this thread has beaten the topic to death a few times over.

Yet you continue to post so it seems like a good topic with thousands of views, right? It hasn't been beaten anymore then any other thread. Everyone's civil, as the way it should be.

Lots of complaints but won't go anywhere. Telling newbies how it "used to be" doesn't do anything.

It's a discussion forum my friend and we're all sharing as much. Oh but this thread and many like it has enlightened a lot of people. You've stated in other threads your utter distain for sharing with newbs how it "used to be". What are you afraid of them finding out?

MUCHO
 
I find this thread enlightening and I am glad to see this topic drawing so much attention. I hope that more people in this hobby will take a stand and refuse to pay these absurd prices. It isn't supply and demand but purely greed. It almost seems like people buy these simply so they can say "look at me! look at me! or they buy them so that they too can "get rich quick". People that stand to gain from the price gouging will defend this topic to the death.
 
I believe what was meant was if no one was selling corals, there would be no hobby. And that is the truth. Sure the hobby and interest in corals encourages businesses. Yet if the businesses didn't exist, the hobby wouldn't get far.

Also clearly didn't understand what I meant about doing what you love but whatever. Honestly this thread has beaten the topic to death a few times over. Lots of complaints but won't go anywhere. Telling newbies how it "used to be" doesn't do anything.

I take great exception to this claim. People have been keeping captured sea life for as long as we've had buckets. We get better at keeping them alive, you know DC pumps instead of air stones or say, stirring spoons etc. But this hobby preexisted it's "industry" particularly the overpriced frag industry which brings us back around. When this was a fringe hobby it was actually easier to obtain specimens whether you collected your own or chose to purchase them.
 
It's a discussion forum my friend and we're all sharing as much. Oh but this thread and many like it has enlightened a lot of people. You've stated in other threads your utter distain for sharing with newbs how it "used to be". What are you afraid of them finding out?

MUCHO

Only been in this hobby myself now a year, and I have 3 corals. Thats it. Did my research, found pieces I liked at what I considered a fair price. Petco, $15/frag for zoas. One had 15 or so polyps one easily had over 40. I never saw how it "used to be". I guess my thought is there are pages of people talking about high prices and saying "don't buy" but offering not many alternatives. Someone finds a cool coral they like, and the only opinion offered is "he's a polyp pimp, i wouldn't pay more than x for that coral". Well thats great, do you have some secret access to those corals that you'd like to share? Otherwise, what good is that comment? Knowing that you could buy whole colonies before for a few bucks doesn't put coral in my tank.

Ideas such as fellow hobbyists or clubs is great, but not an option for every one. Sharing more useful (imo) info, such as what sites do you like buying from that you feel have fair pricing goes a great deal farther. Champion the sites with fair prices, it would accomplish more I feel.

BTW gouging literally is free enterprise. I don't see the difference. People are free to charge what they want, people are free to pay what they want. I am a big believer in laissez faire, this is just an example of it.


I find this thread enlightening and I am glad to see this topic drawing so much attention. I hope that more people in this hobby will take a stand and refuse to pay these absurd prices. It isn't supply and demand but purely greed. It almost seems like people buy these simply so they can say "look at me! look at me! or they buy them so that they too can "get rich quick". People that stand to gain from the price gouging will defend this topic to the death.

It literally is supply and demand. As long as sellers supply, and people pay the price, it won't go away.

I take great exception to this claim. People have been keeping captured sea life for as long as we've had buckets. We get better at keeping them alive, you know DC pumps instead of air stones or say, stirring spoons etc. But this hobby preexisted it's "industry" particularly the overpriced frag industry which brings us back around. When this was a fringe hobby it was actually easier to obtain specimens whether you collected your own or chose to purchase them.

Fringe hobby, exactly. People by the ocean able to collect their own can only go so far. How do others get in to the hobby that aren't by the ocean? How is anyone on this site able to get the nice colorful warm water fish and corals from halfway around the world. Not sure why you take exception to the idea that businesses is what supports this hobby.
 
only been in this hobby myself now a year, and i have 3 corals. Thats it. Did my research, found pieces i liked at what i considered a fair price. Petco, $15/frag for zoas. One had 15 or so polyps one easily had over 40. I never saw how it "used to be". I guess my thought is there are pages of people talking about high prices and saying "don't buy" but offering not many alternatives. Someone finds a cool coral they like, and the only opinion offered is "he's a polyp pimp, i wouldn't pay more than x for that coral". Well thats great, do you have some secret access to those corals that you'd like to share? Otherwise, what good is that comment? Knowing that you could buy whole colonies before for a few bucks doesn't put coral in my tank. Now today, some of those same polyps i had many years ago are being sold for exponentially more.

Hey thanks for the reply. The sky high pricing relative to zoanthids and palythoas began in 04/05. A time when you could buy any and everyrhing ever brought to market on small, medium, large and extra large mother rocks for $25 to $ 80 every day of the week. Go to the selling forum and search my name and the title "zoos for sale". Note the date, number of polyps, the price and no names as I sent them a simple picture. This is how we've done it for years without names and gouging. This notion that it's simple supply and demand is a reoccurring excuse used to justify the con. Please read post #105 of this thread. Click on the first link and be sure to read the 9th paragraph as it concurs with what many have stated for years sir, we were here. There was no shortage of supply. Also, please read the other links as there are dozens more just like it I could have posted. And yes there are options my friend.......several people here have stated as much. Don't buy them, just say no. When you pay $100 for a single polyp which used to cost a dollar, what precedent are you contributing to? You can easily look around for options as everyone else does. There are many options if you've read this entire thread. There is no secret access, not sure why you keep saying that.

ideas such as fellow hobbyists or clubs is great, but not an option for every one. Sharing more useful (imo) info, such as what sites do you like buying from that you feel have fair pricing goes a great deal farther. Champion the sites with fair prices, it would accomplish more i feel.

Alll of that has been detailed in this thread back a few pages.

btw gouging literally is free enterprise. I don't see the difference. People are free to charge what they want, people are free to pay what they want. I am a big believer in laissez faire, this is just an example of it.

I want to share a true story with you and kichmark will concur as I shared it with many. A young college student in California contacted me for help with his zoanthids several years ago. Zoas, palys and mushrooms are all I know and have cultured for over 23 years. I can often look at a tank, the polyp appearance and/or their environment and diagnose a problem. Before I could help him online via email messages, he began to tell me how rare his 8 frags were along with their names and value. I quickly ask him to send me some pics of each and how much he'd paid for all of them. In total, he spent nearly $500. When I received the pictures, it was just as i had expected. My jaw dropped, and he had been takened. Every frag was something so common and pale I usually just give them away and he had paid hundreds. I quickly ask for his phone number and called him. When I told him that he had been ripped off bigtime, he didn't believe me, so I sent him pics and links to prove it. The poor kid started yelling and cursing. He ask me what they were really worth all total. I told him less then $80 total if that.....for a total of 8 frags and 35 polyps. I could hear the kid crying and breaking things in the bavkground. Please tell me the difference now .




it literally is supply and demand. As long as sellers supply, and people pay the price, it won't go away.

Many no longer pay those price, including myself.

fringe hobby, exactly. People by the ocean able to collect their own can only go so far. How do others get in to the hobby that aren't by the ocean? How is anyone on this site able to get the nice colorful warm water fish and corals from halfway around the world. Not sure why you take exception to the idea that businesses is what supports this hobby.

I give up


MUCHO
 
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I try to wait for coral swaps or reef shows (like reefapalooza) to buy what I guess would be called high end coral. I have got many nice corals for a great price just by making an offer... went to one they had here in Jacksonville in December and got 2 higher end and crazy looking acan frags for 40 bucks... when I bough the guy told me he normally sells each of those frags for 50 per polyp!!! they each had 4 or 5.... so suggestion is to look for events near you city and make a drive if you can if you are wanting to get something nice for a good deal. (Knock on wood) it has worked for me everytime I have went
 
Bro, REALLY ? Do you realize how many reefers who were newbs who have left the hobby because people started buying up 50 polyp mother colonies for $60 and chopping up a perfectly healrhy colony a create 45 one polyp frags that they then sell for $30 each? I said 45 frags as often these inexperience reefers will kill many healthy polyps just to create frags. I have been mentoring 10 of said reefers for 2 years now who came into the hobby but left because of this price gouging. Reefing isn't simply for those with " thick wallets and not a care for cost" as you stated above, or is it?

MOOCH

You took it wrong I think. All I'm saying is I don't blame RR, JF, WWC, or CC and the likes for asking 200$ a nub for said blue SPS. Why not "mentor" them to avoid this gouging and buy from local reefers? I have two tables being set up at next weeks largest frag show in New England- Frag Farmers Market. Tons of vendors and hobbyists such as my self will be selling. In fact, Jason Fox comes every year. We locals see the prices he charges against what locals are asking. I even have some of his corals which will be half if not even less than his asking price. I feel it helps us to sell more in fact.
 
SEARH CORRECTION - "Zo frags for sale", not zoos , in the selling forum under Mucho Reef. This was before names and PG.
 
I can't deny that aquaculture setup and operation can be expensive. But frags are just an externality of successful reef keeping. Some corals frag themselves, some you make by accident say cleaning the glass or even moving a rock. Regardless frags happen and we(local reefers) used to geve them to one another. I don't think I'm romanticizing about the purity of anything, I'm just saying that the "community" has changed and for the worse. I further contend that selling a frag for a few hundred bucks is absolutely greed.

This hobby is driven by passion, like every other hobby. Now you want to claim this hobby exists solely due to commerce? I beg to differ.

I hear you sir.

I also don't think I have ever heard so many reasons given to justify gouging.

Mucho
 
Not sure why you take exception to the idea that businesses is what supports this hobby.

I don't I take exception to the notion that this hobby wouldnt exist without ancillary businesses and to these particular statements:

these kind of hobbies exist because there is a business behind them that drives the hobby.

I believe what was meant was if no one was selling corals, there would be no hobby.

I thought I'd made that clear before.

I'm glad some clever people have figured out how to make things I want to buy to assist me in my hobby. I'm not so keen on some greedy so called reefers who are making false claims regarding scarcity, origin, lineage, name and value of the frags they attempt to overcharge for.
 
Have you seen battlecoral's "Fairy Food Acro" that costs 1 million dollars!
:hmm3::hmm3::hmm3::hmm3::hmm3:


A prime example of what the OP is referring to in post #1 of this thread regardless if it is a prank post or not. :headwallblue:
 
I'm sure when/if Adam decides to sell frags of the Fairy Food they will be inline with his other prices, as of right now he has no intention of selling it. Whether or not those prices are acceptable for what he does is up to you. It's not like he's a chop shop selling fresh wild frags, and acros don't grow quite as fast as zoanthid and palythoa for example. Adam is a great guy and it is of my personal opinion that his prices are fair for what he offers, these are tried and tested aquacultured pieces that have been through rigorous quarantine. He has stand up customer service and will cut you a deal on price if you bundle and will even throw in some freebies at times.

Instead of buying aquacultured pieces that you may be spending too much on, which is opinion based, you can purchase wild and maricultured pieces that may not do well in your tank and force you to frag it up anyways to save it. You also never know what you're getting with these pieces either as they usually don't show their full potential right away, especially at your LFS or online. Though admittedly some reefers do have a good eye for seeing the potential others don't, which is acquired through experience.

Whichever direction you take with acropora, I believe you can have an incredible system and I feel like there's more choice with acros versus z&ps. Perhaps this is because successfully keeping acros is a relatively new thing to our hobby, and because of the issues with wilds and maircultured pieces that come in; it's hard to hold a monopoly on them as like I said, you really don't know the full potential of the piece for a couple weeks, sometimes up to a year or longer. Which to me sounds like a lot of fun if you have a decent QT system to house multiple colonies in.

Anyways, sorry I'm probably just rambling and not contributing much to this thread.
 
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A prime example of what the OP is referring to in post #1 of this thread regardless if it is a prank post or not. :headwallblue:

That coral for sale at bc is a joke! You should go on the website and read the description. I recently made my first online purchase with bc. It was a pleasant experience and the price was right.

I haven't followed the entire thread, but I've been reefing for a while too. The whole named coral blah blah stuff is amusing, and some coral prices are a bit out of hand. People are paying much more than I ever would. But, You have to admit some of the coral out there nowadays is pretty cool.

Isn't the simple answer to all of this... Don't buy it. There are plenty of cool non-designer corals to be had at fair prices.
 
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