This is crazy, our tax dollars at work

Like all laws, they are left to interpretation. With regards to Florida, they take the natural wildlife and habitat very seriously so laws are in place to control the sales and handling of "exotic" creatures. So this is where the gray area exists, since "hobbyist" don't have a licence to handle exotic marine habitat they would be cited for doing such, even though the main purpose of the law is to prevent divers from taking corals and selling them without licences.

So yeah, tax dollars at work Lol
 
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Like all laws, they are left to interpretation. With regards to Florida, they take the natural wildlife and habitat very seriously so laws are in place to control the sales and handling of "exotic" creatures. So this is where the gray area exists, since "hobbyist" don't have a licence to handle exotic marine habitat they would be cited for doing such, even though the main purpose of the law is to prevent divers from from taking corals and selling them without licences.

So yeah, tax dollars at work Lol

Kind of goes back to intent of the laws. I can guarantee that the laws were not written to enable Florida to go after some poor smuck who is breaking down his tank or selling off a couple fish because they are getting too large, didn't work, etc. I don't doubt that Florida takes it's natural wildlife very seriously, but abuse of the intent of the laws is what irks me.

mike
 
I actually don't see the issue here. I actually agree that the FWC should be going after people who sell corals.

I see this as an issue of fairness. I know of at least one member on here who has his aquaculture license. Why should he pay his $100 (or $150)/yr to sell corals when another person comes on here and sells without a license? He goes to great lengths to ensure the health of his frags - and to ensure you wont nuke your tank with pests if you put a frag of his into your tank.

Take the question even further: If there were no licenses and anyone could become a seller (I wouldn't go as far as wholesaler) - then why should the LFS exist? Could they even compete with someone selling out of their home? We need LFS in the area not only for livestock but for supplies, knowledge and other services.

What makes a seller? In my opinion, it's anyone who sells more than one frag from a colony. Anyone who makes their money back (or more) on a frag purchase by fragging. Anyone who sells the offspring of any reproductive behavior in their tank (yes - even pods or algae).

y'all seem to think they just make these licenses so they can stuff their own pockets or increase their bureaucracy but I'd venture a guess and say this goes a lot further to regulate the trade, provide budgets for FWC's activities and protect us from bad sellers.

What I may disagree with is the FWC going after a one time sale - like a person tearing down their tank - especially if they've never sold frags or fish before. I'd have more trust in the FWC establishing this before applying a fine than I would have in an individual coming on here and complaining about getting fined.
 
The problem I have with this is if they do in fact make it more difficult to sell fish or coral secondhand I think there will be more fish that are killed rather than resold and more fish that will be released into the ocean than resold.

I get why they want people to get an aquaculture license, I just dislike roadblocks that are likely to give the hobby even more of a black eye in the court of public opinion.

Anyone that sells regularly on here is crazy if they don't have an aquaculture license though - $100 or whatever it is is a small price to pay for protection.
 
If you buy something in a retail store, it is your property. Period. If they sell you something illegal or controlled, then FWC should possibly get involved. That's it. I can see the issue with fragging and perhaps they should be involved there. No different than if you have a huge orange tree in your back yard and decide to start selling oranges. Like anything there is always a grey area in the number of transactions until you start to be considered a business, and that should be respected. FWC work for us at the end of the day and need to respect that.
 
Ultimately its up to the buyer and follow proper quarentine procedures but personally I would much rather purchase from a fellow reefer rather than most LFS. Too many horror stories of red bugs, flatworms, starfishes and the horrible nudis!!! Lol.
 
I read about the law before listing frags for sale on here a few months ago. What I found was a hobby type setup selling a few frags is ok. If you have a series of grow out tanks then you better be licensed.
 
From the FL aquaculture certificate page http://myfwc.com/license/aquaculture-certificate/

Who Needs One?

All persons engaging in aquaculture are required to obtain the certificate. Aquaculture products include: fish, shellfish, amphibians, reptiles, sponges, and corals. The certificate number is required to be on all aquaculture products from harvest to point of sale. Aquaculture activities include:

Fish farming (including culture of species native or non-native to Florida and also including freshwater and saltwater species whether or not they are considered sport or game fish)
Importing non-native conditional or other non-native fish species (including tropical fish) for
Culturing freshwater turtles
Culturing shellfish on submerged lands leased from the State of Florida
Culturing living marine organisms that are attached to rocks on submerged lands leased from the State of Florida.

I see fish fariming, I see non-native fish, I see turtles, and I see organisms attached to rocks submerged in FL waters.

I DO NOT see anything about coral, inverts, etc. in a hobbyists tank.
The importing rule specifically mentions importing for the purpose of farming, I would like to see a more clearcut definition on what constitues fish farming. Does my wrasse count since technically I could fatten him up and have a 1 oz filet?

For even more fun, I just called the FL aquaculture office to inquire about the status as a hobbyist. I was informed that regardless of size or intentions, If I have a fish tank with a coral inside it, I need an aquaculture license, regardless of if I plan to sell or give away anything.

Here is a PDF from the freshfromflorida.com webpage that is the only mention of corals that I can find. http://www.freshfromflorida.com/content/download/33685/817808/FDACS-P-01545_Coral_culture_fact_sheet.pdf It seems to apply to aquaculture in state waters, not hobbyist fish tanks, but does not explicitly say so... Which leaves it open to interpretation and ambiguity.

If this is true, shouldn't fish stores inform customers they need an AQ license when setting up a fish tank? Also, I have NEVER received a certificate of transfer with an AQ# when I purchased a coral or fish FROM A COMMERCIAL OPERATION, and in 8 years, I've bought some stuff.


All in all, after 2 hours of research and a few calls, I am more confused than when I started.
 
I agree 98% and it bears repeating. I'd let them sell more than 1 frag...

I actually don't see the issue here. I actually agree that the FWC should be going after people who sell corals.

I see this as an issue of fairness. I know of at least one member on here who has his aquaculture license. Why should he pay his $100 (or $150)/yr to sell corals when another person comes on here and sells without a license? He goes to great lengths to ensure the health of his frags - and to ensure you wont nuke your tank with pests if you put a frag of his into your tank.

Take the question even further: If there were no licenses and anyone could become a seller (I wouldn't go as far as wholesaler) - then why should the LFS exist? Could they even compete with someone selling out of their home? We need LFS in the area not only for livestock but for supplies, knowledge and other services.

What makes a seller? In my opinion, it's anyone who sells more than one frag from a colony. Anyone who makes their money back (or more) on a frag purchase by fragging. Anyone who sells the offspring of any reproductive behavior in their tank (yes - even pods or algae).

y'all seem to think they just make these licenses so they can stuff their own pockets or increase their bureaucracy but I'd venture a guess and say this goes a lot further to regulate the trade, provide budgets for FWC's activities and protect us from bad sellers.

What I may disagree with is the FWC going after a one time sale - like a person tearing down their tank - especially if they've never sold frags or fish before. I'd have more trust in the FWC establishing this before applying a fine than I would have in an individual coming on here and complaining about getting fined.
 
FWC: Who Needs One?

All persons engaging in aquaculture are required to obtain the certificate. Aquaculture products include: fish, shellfish, amphibians, reptiles, sponges, and corals. The certificate number is required to be on all aquaculture products from harvest to point of sale. Aquaculture activities include:


I see fish fariming, I see non-native fish, I see turtles, and I see organisms attached to rocks submerged in FL waters.

I DO NOT see anything about coral, inverts, etc. in a hobbyists tank.
The importing rule specifically mentions importing for the purpose of farming, I would like to see a more clearcut definition on what constitues fish farming. Does my wrasse count since technically I could fatten him up and have a 1 oz filet?
I'm not sure where the notion that a simply hobbyist needs the AC license just to keep a tank came from, but I think they misinformed you. Dept of Ag turns down a lot of hobbyists applications if they deem their setup to be inconsequential, but again they only look at aquacultured products. Technically, if you are selling frags or a clutch of clownfish, you need it.
 
I see this as an issue of fairness. I know of at least one member on here who has his aquaculture license. Why should he pay his $100 (or $150)/yr to sell corals when another person comes on here and sells without a license? He goes to great lengths to ensure the health of his frags - and to ensure you wont nuke your tank with pests if you put a frag of his into your tank.

An AQ license has nothing to do with keeping a pest free tank. Many of us go to great lengths to keep our tanks free of pests regardless of an AQ license, and spend MUCH more than $100 doing it(dips, QT tanks, medications, etc.) I rate LFS's and hobbyist tanks by talking with the owner and judging myself the health of the livestock.

A certificate on the wall from the dept of agriculture means nothing to me. Restaurants are inspected and licensed, yet many are shut down for ignoring rules and safety.

Take the question even further: If there were no licenses and anyone could become a seller (I wouldn't go as far as wholesaler) - then why should the LFS exist? Could they even compete with someone selling out of their home? We need LFS in the area not only for livestock but for supplies, knowledge and other services.

The same reason there are shady tree mechanics and real auto garages. Some folks prefer to shop at retail, some prefer supporting the guy working out of his garage. Both have their markets.

I have a tiny tank compared to the volume at most LFS(like most of us). If I'm willing to drive all over the greater Tampa Bay area, maybe I can find what I want, or I can go to the LFS who has a much larger selection. Factor in gas and drive time and it can be cheaper to make one trip to the LFS vs driving all over town to pick up a few frags.

Does anyone have a new guinea wrasse for sale? I'm guessing I'll have to have an LFS order it for me.

LFS's also sell dry goods, give advice and can order things we might not have access to.

What makes a seller? In my opinion, it's anyone who sells more than one frag from a colony. Anyone who makes their money back (or more) on a frag purchase by fragging. Anyone who sells the offspring of any reproductive behavior in their tank (yes - even pods or algae).

Per the FL Aquaculture office, selling is irrelevant. If you house these creatures, you are involved in aquaculture and need the license, regardless of whether you sell or not.

y'all seem to think they just make these licenses so they can stuff their own pockets or increase their bureaucracy but I'd venture a guess and say this goes a lot further to regulate the trade, provide budgets for FWC's activities and protect us from bad sellers.

Regulations can be good, I am all for controlling invasive species. My biggest gripe right now, is a lack of clear definitions. The FWC says one thing, while the dept. of Agriculture is saying another. If they can imprison or fine me for breaking the law, the least they could do is provide a clear definition of the law. Kind of hard to follow the rules when the rulemakers can't agree on it.

What I may disagree with is the FWC going after a one time sale - like a person tearing down their tank - especially if they've never sold frags or fish before. I'd have more trust in the FWC establishing this before applying a fine than I would have in an individual coming on here and complaining about getting fined.

Per the FL Aquaculture statute, selling is irrelevant. If you house these creatures, you need the license, regardless of whether you sell or not.
http://leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0500-0599/0597/0597.html
597.0015 Definitions."”For purposes of this chapter, the following terms shall have the following meanings:
(1) "œAquaculture" means the cultivation of aquatic organisms.
Culture is defined as "to promote or improve the growth of" I think feeding my fish qualifies as culture.

597.004 Aquaculture certificate of registration."”
(1) CERTIFICATION."”Any person engaging in aquaculture must be certified by the department.

There is no mention of an actual sale, simply having a fish in a cup of water qualifies as aquaculture.
As far as I can tell, this extends to a betta in a cup of water or a 10,000gal commercial facility. There should be some more clear cut definitions as to who is impacted by the law.


I think they could clear a lot of this confusion by sending every LFS some training material. That would be a great distribution point for information in my mind. I have never been provided with a chain of ownership for any coral purchased retail, nor was I ever informed that by making a purchase I would be in violation of the law without an AQ license.
 
Dept of Ag turns down a lot of hobbyists applications if they deem their setup to be inconsequential, but again they only look at aquacultured products. Technically, if you are selling frags or a clutch of clownfish, you need it.

I provided a little more detail in the above post, direct from the statutes. This was after a phone discussion with them where she specifically stated 1 coral or fish in a tank requires an AQ license. I like things in writing and the statutes talk about the process of aquaculturing separate from selling.


The sale of the 120 that got the ORCA member in trouble was what started this. Hypothetically, If he was turned down for an AQ license, then fined by the FWC and given a bench warrant, that would be messed up.

Some clarification from the people in power would go a long way in settling some of the confusion.
 
I provided a little more detail in the above post, direct from the statutes. This was after a phone discussion with them where she specifically stated 1 coral or fish in a tank requires an AQ license. I like things in writing and the statutes talk about the process of aquaculturing separate from selling.


The sale of the 120 that got the ORCA member in trouble was what started this. Hypothetically, If he was turned down for an AQ license, then fined by the FWC and given a bench warrant, that would be messed up.

Some clarification from the people in power would go a long way in settling some of the confusion.

So let me get this straight from there reading if I have an aquarium and feed or let my fish breed than I need to get an agriculture license regardless if I sale? This what I am gathering from your post.
 
Well, I'm not selling. It's not worth going to jail over and I really don't have the time, nor the desire to derive logic from two organizations that would target a five year old with a fish tank over poachers and larger agricultural operations dumping fertilizer into the aquifer.

To further that point, I find it ridiculous (though completely believable) that cash strapped and personnel starved organizations would bother with stuff like this.

Finally, I offer a word of caution to others who sell on here. I have heard fellow hobbyists talk about turning in other hobbyists they don't like. There's a lot of drama in the hobby and it wouldn't surprise me if this whole thing was started by a hobbyist or a LFS as an act of revenge.
 
Well, I'm not selling. It's not worth going to jail over and I really don't have the time, nor the desire to derive logic from two organizations that would target a five year old with a fish tank over poachers and larger agricultural operations dumping fertilizer into the aquifer.

To further that point, I find it ridiculous (though completely believable) that cash strapped and personnel starved organizations would bother with stuff like this.

Finally, I offer a word of caution to others who sell on here. I have heard fellow hobbyists talk about turning in other hobbyists they don't like. There's a lot of drama in the hobby and it wouldn't surprise me if this whole thing was started by a hobbyist or a LFS as an act of revenge.

Very well said Chad
 
I actually don't see the issue here. I actually agree that the FWC should be going after people who sell corals.

I see this as an issue of fairness. I know of at least one member on here who has his aquaculture license. Why should he pay his $100 (or $150)/yr to sell corals when another person comes on here and sells without a license? He goes to great lengths to ensure the health of his frags - and to ensure you wont nuke your tank with pests if you put a frag of his into your tank.

Take the question even further: If there were no licenses and anyone could become a seller (I wouldn't go as far as wholesaler) - then why should the LFS exist? Could they even compete with someone selling out of their home? We need LFS in the area not only for livestock but for supplies, knowledge and other services.

What makes a seller? In my opinion, it's anyone who sells more than one frag from a colony. Anyone who makes their money back (or more) on a frag purchase by fragging. Anyone who sells the offspring of any reproductive behavior in their tank (yes - even pods or algae).

y'all seem to think they just make these licenses so they can stuff their own pockets or increase their bureaucracy but I'd venture a guess and say this goes a lot further to regulate the trade, provide budgets for FWC's activities and protect us from bad sellers.

What I may disagree with is the FWC going after a one time sale - like a person tearing down their tank - especially if they've never sold frags or fish before. I'd have more trust in the FWC establishing this before applying a fine than I would have in an individual coming on here and complaining about getting fined.

Ted, didn't a lot of your corals come from Jeff Berg? Is he a LFS or had the aquaculture license?

I think I know the person your referring about and I've gotten several types of algea from my frags purchased from him, luckily my seahare eats it and keeps them clean :).
 
Well, I'm not selling. It's not worth going to jail over and I really don't have the time, nor the desire to derive logic from two organizations that would target a five year old with a fish tank over poachers and larger agricultural operations dumping fertilizer into the aquifer.

This is part of what has me concerned. The statutes make no mention of selling, and the conversation I had with the Dept. of Agriculture seemed to back this.

The impression I am getting is if you own a tank, you are at risk. The people selling are the easy ones to target since they are advertising they possess coral or fish, and are not prominently listing their Aquaculture License #.. This makes it easier to "prove" they have run afoul of the law, but does not absolve the rest of us, we are just under the radar at this point.

I hope I am wrong in all this, but until I see some clarification in writing from the boys in Tallahassee, I err on the side of caution.
 
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