This is not good at all

[firefish2020]

<b>There is no good news here. Anyone here who understands the basics of reef chemistry can tell what this news means.
Don't give me the usual silver lining speeches about the oceans having been here for millions of years and we as simple humans simply lack the ability to destroy something so diverse and vast. The truth is we apparently do have that power, it is only verifying the worst case scenario that I think is indeed ahead of us. Is there anything we can do to prevent this? Prob not, just keep propagating those coral they may be among the last of there kind.
To deny that this is as serious as it is, is only an atempt to somehow wish it away IMO</b>

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-2058687,00.html

 

[bneal3]

WOW! That is terrifying!

 

[phljess]

Sounds like the book of Revelation, I believe it is One-Third of the world's oceans, lakes and lands. I just do not see it getting any better in the future. Wish I could see the cup half full on this one but it does'nt seem like anyone else cares what is happening to the oceans or the world in general. I guess we are all partially to blame for the mess the environment is in, but the question is what are we going to do about it?---nothing, we will still drive our cars by ourselves, instead of car pooling, forget to turn the lights off when we leave the house, but these are small compared to voicing to the government to demand changes in emission standards and new environmentally friendly technologies, also why in the heck are we not utilizing hydro-powerplants especially in WV where there are tons of rivers and dams. Of course it does'nt help that we can not govern other emerging countries that are trying to become "industrialized" and creating even more problems for the environment as their economies grow.

 

[H.crispa]

I'm not buying it. The author fails to give any quantifyable evidence for his assertions. Even the Dr. he quotes parses his words with "could" and "might" yet he provides no data to support his hypothesis whatsoever. In addition, I'm willing to bet that with all the asteroid and comet collisions the Earth has endured over the millennia, environmental change on a global scale has occurred much more rapidly and with much more severity than anything we are currently experiencing. Yet we find corals, bacteria, fungi, plants, reptiles etc. etc. alive today.

In addition, if you look at polar ice cap core samples, you will find times in the Earth's history when CO2 levels were much higher than now. What happened to the sea back then? If everything died off then, why is the stuff still around now?

I just have a tough time with the "end of the world/ doom and gloom" predictions of impending environmental collapse.

 

[mcox33]

yeah that is why they advertise seashells and coral for home decorations on the same page.
They aren't very convincing that they believe what they say or that they even care.

Sorry but I just saw a show on deep sea diving with the remote control thing that was taking samples and pictures, they found some new creature that comes to the surface at night and takes in the carbon dioixde and other polutions and turn them into oxigen.

This is some new little creatures no one had ever seen before. They seem to be undoing the greenhouse thing we have going on.

I bet the more they have to feed on the more they will reproduce and will fix the ozone layer. Especially as we are now taking extreme measures to reduce the ozone depletion rate. And who is to say we evolution won't just give us new corals, to replace the ones we lose.


I know, I don't like to see things become extinct either but do you really think that God did not know all this was going to happen and make provisions for it.

 

[bswedenburg]

in the end, human civilizations tend to support the status quo. it does not matter that the status quo leads to destruction. it's like the entire "earth first" movement. they all want to "save the earth", but in the simplest terms save it from what? it's simple... too many people....yet you NEVER hear them talking about reducing the numbers of humanity swarming the globe. in the end, there is no such thing as conservation without human population reduction. oh yeah...there's that status quo thing, and let's not forget NIMBY.....

 

[firefish2020]

Hmm maybe Im not wording this to where it matters to you as a hobbyists. Of course the earth has been through asteroid hits and comet collisions but we were not there yet. Im sure if you look into it those events did affect the entire planet and if Im right such an event did wipe out nearly 84% of all life in the ocean before. As a hobbyists this affects each and everyone of you in that we are not talking about a slow decline here we are talking about a fast destructive wave. We know what happens when things like this begin, the Govt's of the world usually step in and try to intervene. If this happens you could see a ban on some or all coral in the near future. Less data than this has been taken serious by the world before in other matters and action applied be it wrong or right. Just thiknk about what "could happen" thats all I ask.

 

[LtPiper]

Reef discovery.

 

[H.crispa]

I'm with you on this Ron. I just think we are swimming in different sides of the same overflow box.

Oh yeah. Government intervention. That always works. No, wait a second... government isn't very good at anything and tends to screw up bad situations and make them worse. If the governments of the world "step in", we've all screwed the pooch! They'll kill us all.

On the other hand, if we farm our own stuff like good little capitalists and practice responsible harvesting from the ocean.........................

Oh well, I'm going back to my room for a rant. Care to join me?
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=6852625#post6852625

 

[WVfishguy]

Ron, one of the (very) few advantages of getting older is that you tend to worry less about things like this because you realize you've seen it before.
Way back in 1962, Rachel Carson foretold a similar doomsday scenario in her book Silent Spring. My generation was taught we'd all be dead by now.
We tend to underestimate both our own sense of self-preservation and the resiliency of Mother Earth.
BTW - Carson was working for the U.S. Dept. of Fisheries when she became concerned about pesticides, especially DDT. Now the use of DDT is illegal, which has meant the death of millions of people in the third world from malaria and other insect-borne diseases. More governmental regulations anyone?

 

[firefish2020]

On the other hand, if we farm our own stuff like good little capitalists and practice responsible harvesting from the ocean.........................

I think you all can be right on this and this is a prime example of why these things are really not taken that serious. My big problem with this scenario is not that the oceans are dying, I personally do believe we have impacted the seas in a negative way more so than anytime in recorded human history but that's not where I am going with this I know the earth can and has bounced back untold numbers of times. We can debate global warming, over harvesting, mercury pollution and any number of very real issues and never come up with a straight answer that we all agree on. But if I recall the last bit of information I saw last year said something about the Governments attempt to curb reef damage if trends continued by basically outlawing harvesting (coral among others), and if I also remember correctly it mentioned only licensed and qualified aquaculturists would be allowed to propagate coral? I could be wrong it was at least a year ago but I remember talking to several individuals about it at the time. And frankly such a response would be far reaching and not surprise me at all. Most Gov't officials have no clue what coral propagation is or how the simple hobbyist can help protect the reefs.

Things have happened before far worse, I do agree but if something is on the way, there will be no differentiating it from any past event until it is to late. If we take every possible threat as a false alarm started by a bunch of extreme hippies and overzealous researchers trying to get a name for themselves, then we can not even think of rectifying a larger situation or cutting it off beforehand.

Great opinions and deepest respects for all you guys, don't think you have to tip-toe around this issue. If you think it's real then so be it, if not, no harm is done either way. I only point you to it because this COULD someday effect us all, and if such an event and eventual response is on the table it becomes something we as a group should be aware of and have plans to deal with in the future.

 

[WVfishguy]

I will have to say that hobbyists can have an affect on ecosystems. The demand for cheap aquarium fish pretty much destroyed the reefs in the Philippines through the use of massive quantities of cyanide to collect fishes. When I was in my early 20's you could get a large saddle-back clownfish for $5, and many other equally inexpensive fish, as well as anemones and a few other inverts. We had no idea how to keep them alive, but they were so cheap hobbyists simply replaced them when they died. No one I knew back then knew (or cared) about the destruction of the reefs. When I finally realized what was going on I quit keeping salt water animals and tried to get everyone else to do the same. But they would always say, "Don't worry about it - there are plenty of fish in the ocean."

 

[H.crispa]

Fishguy speaks a lot of truth. I know that dynamiting reefs in the Phillipines, Jakarta (or however you spell it), Fiji, Tonga, and all those other little clusters of Pacific islands to collect liverock were bad and probably still are. I probably own 150 lbs or so of Fiji liverock and some of it was probably ill-gotten. I've been in this a while though. Things have changed in many of those areas though.

Cyanide??? Oh, where to start? Back in the old days long before I got involved in the hobby, wild Florida liverock was being harvested by the ton, cyanide was routinely used to harvest fish, and people were even using household bleach to chase bugs (Florida lobsters) from their hiding places to collect them when they were in season for weekend "bugroasts" where divers would get together on the weekends and barbecue the bugs they caught that week (sometimes using bleach).

Florida today is a different place. Saltwater fish gained a reputation for being expensive (they are), hard to maintain (they were but no longer are in most cases), and something for experts only. Why? Because they were collected using freakin' CYANIDE!!! Today, I see cyanide fish in the USA extremely rarely judging from Barry's shipments over the past several years. The reason SW fish were thought to be so hard to take care of was that they were cyanide poisoned and destined to die from the word go!

Take the "Mandarin" and "Psychadelic" Dragonettes, ( I know they are from the Pacific so there are gaping holes in this comparison BUT...) (Synchiropus sp. for you geeks out there) also know as "Mandarin or Psychadelic 'Gobis'. They are not. They are not gobies at all. But I digress...) These fish used to be thought of as "just waiting to die in some loving aquarium." Then they became known as a genus that you shouldn't buy if the gut was emaciated. Honestly I am still hesitant about those but if they appear healthy otherwise I'll still buy them.

Now they are a fish that can live a great life in a healthy reef. They can come in emaciated and pig out on your copepods, amphipods and other stuff we can't even see in your aquarium and get as fat as the one in philjess's aquarium. Honestly, I think this fish is either on sterroids, is a genetic freak, or is in hog heaven. Honestly, having observed this animal for some time, I'm betting on the "hog heaven". Hey Phil, post a good pic of you obese fish!!!

But, the public stopped buying these "destined to die" fish and so the market went away. The government also helped out and banned this practice. Of course that did nothing for the fish collected overseas. We don't see much cyanide-collected fish from overseas these days because people stopped buying them. The market dried up. People realized that it was smarter to buy a $20 yellow tang than a $14 yellow tang B/c the $14 one was GONNA DIE! So that crap has pretty much stopped in our corner of the market.

The dynamiting of the reefs? Honestly I don't know. But judging from the quality of the Fiji I see today, they aren't dynamiting anything. They are down there picking up scraps. There are a number of possible explanations some good some bad. Does anyone know? If you do, please post.

 

[firefish2020]

Im no expert on this at all but it would seem that if the data were correct humans would be the cause of this particular problem. Either way a rise in sea levels and temperature is equivalent to your heater getting stuck and you moving your corals deeper and more away from the light, of course this light is the sun but an increase could be potentially devastating to certain species?

http://reference.aol.com/article?id=20060302121809990001

 

[phljess]

Jason, you need to quit picking on my little super-sized dragonet. I have been trying to sway her away from junk food but she will not leave BBS or copeopods alone or anything else for that manner. I will try to get a pic and post it sometime. It is either "with child" or the most obese dragonet I have ever seen.

 

[firefish2020]

Even more bad news if you choose to take it seriously.
It would appear as if we do have the power to affect our world after all.


http://reference.aol.com/globalwarming/timemagazine?id=20060327120109990001

 

[Reef4Fun]

Some good reading this month would be in the Sport Fishing magazine, on page 120. It talks about building artificial reefs in NC. It is more for the fishing, but it is being done to protect the natuaral reefs. Fishing the natural reefs tears up the corals and leaves the polution of fishing lines and tackel. I just thought that it was great that it was being done. This subject needs to be taken seriously by all and not just by hobbiest and scientist.

 

[firefish2020]

When you are finished with that I would not mind reading it if you would not mind.

Also there is a GREAT article in Scientific America about the acid levels in the ocean which I just got my hands on tonight. I'll sum it up after I read it thoroughly.

 

[Reef4Fun]

Ok Ron, I will bring it in next time I make it to the shop, and I look forward to hearing what you have read.

 

[Aquayne_wv]

As much a certain member will say, our government (of the people and by the people) needs to set standards for automobile emissions. I had to buy a Japanese car to be able to get 40 mpg. At the time Hummers were big sellers. The problem with FREE MARKETs is that they are driven by forces other than reason. If this country had followed the path set forth by President Jimmy Carter, we would already be free of the influence of the oil producing countries. My car is now 11 years old. It has saved thousands of gallons of gas and green house gasses. I heard a man at the gas station complaining that it took $90.00 to fill up his 12 mpg SUV. We drive the same distance to work. People have got to wake up. Several things have happened to raise oil use, these include lowering of standards for auto makers related to mpg.