Thoughts on ich
- Thread starter Paul B
- Start date
reefing has become way too 'science and chemistry' related. people follow the supposed science and just cannot get good results...then there are the long term salt water aquarists. They have experimented, tweaked husbandry, and gained experience and succeed well beyond what these science followers do. What ever happened to following the results of success? I have been keeping salt water for 25 years myself...ICK(or any disease) has also never proven a problem for me in all these years of doing what I do(never had a QT). While I go about things in a different fashion to Paul, I have a methodology that science says does not work(I use a clarifying UV and a skimmer only for non biological filtration) yet I seem to have been able to defy science for all this time. Paul too. Frankly who needs an explanation and someone to tell us our techniques do not work...our success regarding the issues proves they do.
Paul's methods don't work...LOL yes it does....my method does not work... LOL...well... yes it does.
Frankly I could care less if my tank perhaps has ick or another parasite in it...as long as it does not affect the fish... and for whatever reason what I do works to not have my fish affected...so... It is good to be someone that does not suffer paralysis by analysis. Have I seen ick in a newly introduced fish...yes...never lasted over a day or two and never affected any other established fish.
Paul's methods don't work...LOL yes it does....my method does not work... LOL...well... yes it does.
Frankly I could care less if my tank perhaps has ick or another parasite in it...as long as it does not affect the fish... and for whatever reason what I do works to not have my fish affected...so... It is good to be someone that does not suffer paralysis by analysis. Have I seen ick in a newly introduced fish...yes...never lasted over a day or two and never affected any other established fish.
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From another "geezer"........thank you SWCC, a breath of fresh air in the Ick debate.
My new set-up is now near 4 months old and doing fine.
11 fish from 5 different Shops, each got 15 mins drip acclimatisation, and were feeding 15 mins. after adding to D/T. No ick, no problems, no fuss.
But I will bet that there is ick in my tank.........also there is algae, but I cant see that either !!!!!
My new set-up is now near 4 months old and doing fine.
11 fish from 5 different Shops, each got 15 mins drip acclimatisation, and were feeding 15 mins. after adding to D/T. No ick, no problems, no fuss.
But I will bet that there is ick in my tank.........also there is algae, but I cant see that either !!!!!
your welcome... frankly.. the ick dilemma is silly... do what us experienced guys do... blow off the 'magazine scientific articles' (junk science) and get proven positive results from following us that are experienced in keeping reefs/ fowlr (whatever) tanks for the long term... when someone tells you we are wrong...laugh!!!
I think people who don't QT will eventually get Ich in their tank. The parasites are there. So, to me, the real question is why are some able to "manage" Ich long-term while others experience a wipe out? I think a lot of it has to do with bulking up (and maintaining) your fishes' immune systems. I think Paul does a great job of employing nutrition to accomplish this. I've copied some of his methods, and all of my fish seem better off because of it. Their colors are more vivid, they seem stronger, more active... and unfortunately, increased aggression may also be an unintended side effect. And I think if you can keep the parasites at bay for long enough then it is certainly possible that a fish can develop permanent immunity due to long-term exposure. A fish developing temporary immunity (6 months I believe) is already a well-established scientific fact according to some of the research I have read. So, why is permanent immunity considered impossible?
Now, I think the real trick is maintaining a stable environment until permanent immunity can be accomplished. You've done your part with nutrition... but how many times does a mistake happen or something that's simply out of your control? You lose power for an extended period, a heater goes haywire, stray voltage, you suddenly realize your SG is way off, something gets sprayed too close to your tank, etc. The "Murphy's Law" possibilities are endless and seem to happen to us all eventually. Any of those scenarios are "fish stressors" IMO, which can undo years of "nutrition Ich prevention" in an instant. All of your fishes' immune systems suddenly get compromised, and that's the opportunity that the Ich parasites still living in your water, rock and sand have been waiting for.
So, while I think Paul's nutrition techniques are extremely valuable and a great asset to anyone who decides to manage Ich, this reefer won't be giving up his QT procedures anytime soon.
Now, I think the real trick is maintaining a stable environment until permanent immunity can be accomplished. You've done your part with nutrition... but how many times does a mistake happen or something that's simply out of your control? You lose power for an extended period, a heater goes haywire, stray voltage, you suddenly realize your SG is way off, something gets sprayed too close to your tank, etc. The "Murphy's Law" possibilities are endless and seem to happen to us all eventually. Any of those scenarios are "fish stressors" IMO, which can undo years of "nutrition Ich prevention" in an instant. All of your fishes' immune systems suddenly get compromised, and that's the opportunity that the Ich parasites still living in your water, rock and sand have been waiting for.
So, while I think Paul's nutrition techniques are extremely valuable and a great asset to anyone who decides to manage Ich, this reefer won't be giving up his QT procedures anytime soon.
Then there are those of us long term aquarists with decades of both hobby and professional experience that use the real science in conjunction with our own observations. Interestingly, when it comes to experienced professional aquarists and aquaculturists, QT is pretty much the rule. Large public aquariums and aquaculture outfits wouldn't bother with the expense of loss of valuable space to QT set ups and QT protocols if it didn't have a real and substantial value 
I once had a professor decide to ignore my advice on QT'ing some wild caught fish, he damn near lost an entire year long experiment with lab reared stock to amyloodinium. And that was from simply placing them in seperate tank that was in the lab...instead of the using the QT tanks I had set up for him in another lab across the hall. BTW, after killing off a half million dollar experiment from ignoring my advice, he never ignored my fish husbandry advice again
I once had a professor decide to ignore my advice on QT'ing some wild caught fish, he damn near lost an entire year long experiment with lab reared stock to amyloodinium. And that was from simply placing them in seperate tank that was in the lab...instead of the using the QT tanks I had set up for him in another lab across the hall. BTW, after killing off a half million dollar experiment from ignoring my advice, he never ignored my fish husbandry advice again
I certainly do not have near the experience that the majority of people who post here do. I also do not have as much knowledge, as I have only been reading the RC forum on and off for about a year.
This whole ich thing is somewhat perplexing to me. I understand the "science" behind it, but there are aspects I still do not get. For example, many people explain that fish can become immune to ich, but the ich will still be present in the infected tank. Maybe "immune" is the wrong word, because the way I understand the term, if the fish become immune, they can no longer contract the ich. If all the fish in an infected tank can no longer contract ich due to becoming immune, then the ich will not have a host on which to survive. Right? If there is no suitable host, the ich should disappear, the same as if the tank had been left fallow. So maybe "immune" is not the right work?
In my own case, I have had a total of nine fish over the last four years. Seven of the nine have been purchased from Petco of all places. I have lost four. One died the day after I put it in a relatively new tank (I didn't know anything about a "cycle" at that time, so I think that had something to do with it.) Petco told me a blenny would be fine on frozen food (another newbie mistake on my part, the fish starved to death because my live rock was not mature enough at the time.) A chromis died after I upgraded to a larger tank (while I was letting the new tank cycle, the heater in my old tank went haywire and brought the temp up to 96. This, with the stress of being chased around by a net, and then put into a new environment was too much for it I think.) I do not know why the last fish died. But I have never seen the white tell-tale signs of ich. So could I just be lucky? Have my fish contracted ich, and just never shown external sighs? Are my fish "immune"? I do not do anything special, and as I said I am certainly not an old time reefer. I do think that quarantine is a good practice, unfortunately it is just not practical for me.
Again, the "science" makes sense to me, and the methods of avoiding introducing ich to ones tank seem reasonable, but there still seems to be a lot of anecdotal evidence, including mine, that leave questions about the whole thing to state that any one method is infallible.
This whole ich thing is somewhat perplexing to me. I understand the "science" behind it, but there are aspects I still do not get. For example, many people explain that fish can become immune to ich, but the ich will still be present in the infected tank. Maybe "immune" is the wrong word, because the way I understand the term, if the fish become immune, they can no longer contract the ich. If all the fish in an infected tank can no longer contract ich due to becoming immune, then the ich will not have a host on which to survive. Right? If there is no suitable host, the ich should disappear, the same as if the tank had been left fallow. So maybe "immune" is not the right work?
In my own case, I have had a total of nine fish over the last four years. Seven of the nine have been purchased from Petco of all places. I have lost four. One died the day after I put it in a relatively new tank (I didn't know anything about a "cycle" at that time, so I think that had something to do with it.) Petco told me a blenny would be fine on frozen food (another newbie mistake on my part, the fish starved to death because my live rock was not mature enough at the time.) A chromis died after I upgraded to a larger tank (while I was letting the new tank cycle, the heater in my old tank went haywire and brought the temp up to 96. This, with the stress of being chased around by a net, and then put into a new environment was too much for it I think.) I do not know why the last fish died. But I have never seen the white tell-tale signs of ich. So could I just be lucky? Have my fish contracted ich, and just never shown external sighs? Are my fish "immune"? I do not do anything special, and as I said I am certainly not an old time reefer. I do think that quarantine is a good practice, unfortunately it is just not practical for me.
Again, the "science" makes sense to me, and the methods of avoiding introducing ich to ones tank seem reasonable, but there still seems to be a lot of anecdotal evidence, including mine, that leave questions about the whole thing to state that any one method is infallible.
lhm nole
New member
I have been keeping saltwater on and off for 20 years and have dealt with ich and many occasions and oodium on a few.. I also at times was too over confident in my abilities and would ignore the ich outbreaks and come to pay the price later..I qt everything now just my personal experience..
Now from the other side I know a local saltwater store and his show tank has ick and a pretty good amount of fish including tangs that most would not approve off but the fact that I have seen ich on his fish for the last 2 years and it never overwhelms them and other than the ich spots they look healthy and are growing.
Now from the other side I know a local saltwater store and his show tank has ick and a pretty good amount of fish including tangs that most would not approve off but the fact that I have seen ich on his fish for the last 2 years and it never overwhelms them and other than the ich spots they look healthy and are growing.
Well, if my pet theory is correct then only your newest fish would show symptoms of Ich. Your older fish should already have immunity. So, when was the last time you put a new fish in your tank?
But let's hope I'm not proven right or wrong about any of this. A week without power would be really bad news for any tank, Ich or no Ich. What are your contingency plans? I'm guessing you don't have a generator?
I really believe that having healthy fish is what keeps it from showing itself. I know that my UV does not 'kill' ick..I run it to control algae, organics and bacteria...I also know that for whatever reason, doing so has somehow shown me that my fish are healthier for it. whatever the reason, My fish thrive and live long..last fish I lost was due to 'suicide by MP10'...LOL... he must have gotten too close as it switched modes and was sucked into it... either way, I believe that my success is providing my livestock with ULN water/system and my coral and fish are healthier from it and do not suffer disease.
Well, it's been proven that fish can "host" the parasite without showing symptoms. Especially if it gets in the gills. I think the fish just kind of gets used to it being there and stops twitching/rubbing in that area. The parasites attach to the fish, feed, and then fall off and down to the substrate to continue their life cycle.
Now, IF fish can develop long-term immunity and ALL of your fish are immune and that immunity also protects them from being a host, then it's certainly possible for all the Ich to starve out in a tank due to not finding a suitable host to feed on. Of course, this is all just theoretical, and involves a lot of ANDS and IFS. But even if this is all true, then the next time you put a newly acquired infected fish in your DT the life cycle starts anew for him and any fish put in after.. Until they've built up sufficient immunity or die.
Paul B
Premium Member
A few days ago I added a cardinal.
I add NSW and mud from the Long Island Sound all the time.
Bill I have been through the New York Aquarium back stage a few times as recently as this year and I was checking out their NSW intake system that feeds their coral tanks. It comes right from a pipe out off of the beach on Coney Island.
I don't know if they quarantine but the water is right off the beach.
Maybe New York water kills ich because I use it and I also don't have problems with ich.
Maybe it's from those hot dog venders in Manhattan dumping the water from those dirty water dogs down the storm drains. :lol2:
Paul,
I expect they have some pretty good filtration on that incoming SW. It's been a few years since I've been there, so I don't recall their specific set up, but most facilities using NSW like that run it through filtration that includes large scale UV.
I expect they have some pretty good filtration on that incoming SW. It's been a few years since I've been there, so I don't recall their specific set up, but most facilities using NSW like that run it through filtration that includes large scale UV.
ReefTeacher
Member
Paul,
I hope you (and your fish) are safe.....Go away Sandy!
I hope you (and your fish) are safe.....Go away Sandy!
but..... ask anybody...UV's don't work...LOL...:lolspin:
UVs are great for killing all the nasties before they ever reach your tank. For example, when used on a common return line feeding multiple tanks. Of course, all the fish in the tank where the nasties originated are still screwed.
Also, the bulb needs to be less than 6 months old and the flow rate adjusted so it's slow enough to achieve a 100% kill rate.
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I was making a joke about how some folks claim UV is useless and won't help...
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