Tiny Might skimmer rockin'

[spazz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7851485#post7851485 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by smjtkj
Kentrob, there would be some benefit for reducing turbulence, but I think the diffusor needs to be seperated from the inputs to be most effective.

this is right. you dont want the intakes to be in the deffuser chamber. they need to be outside the deffuser chamber. only the outputs of the pumps should be in the deffuser chamber. i understand why you would want them in the deffuser chamber but the pumps would just suck in all the air bubbles and shut down. it wouldnt seperate the air from the water. i wish we could figure out a way to do that. then we could make a skimmer with almost zero turbulance in it.

 

[kentrob11]

Thanks for the info guys. What I was thinking was to Lazer cut a disk a hair smaller than the inside diameter of the tubing and attach 3/4" acrylic rod "legs" to it so that it basically sat on the bottom of the inside of the skimmer with the actual disk an inch or so above the outlets of the recirc pumps. I figured I could extend the black pvc that comes out of the suction part of the 4 pumps down to about 1/4" from the bottom and remove the 45s from the oulets to keep from directing the bubbles downward. I know it wouldn't function as well as if it was made properly to begin with but do you think this would be better than without a diffuser plate at all?

 

[spazz]

smjtkj how are you feeding your skimmer? is it straight off the overflow box gravity fed, or is it a pump in the sump?

 

[spazz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7851697#post7851697 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kentrob11
Thanks for the info guys. What I was thinking was to Lazer cut a disk a hair smaller than the inside diameter of the tubing and attach 3/4" acrylic rod "legs" to it so that it basically sat on the bottom of the inside of the skimmer with the actual disk an inch or so above the outlets of the recirc pumps. I figured I could extend the black pvc that comes out of the suction part of the 4 pumps down to about 1/4" from the bottom and remove the 45s from the oulets to keep from directing the bubbles downward. I know it wouldn't function as well as if it was made properly to begin with but do you think this would be better than without a diffuser plate at all?

well it dont sound too expensive and it would be easy to install. so i say go for it. the worst thing that would happen is that it wouldnt work. but if you do go ahead with this idea you need to let us know how it goes. with lots of pics and details.

 

[kentrob11]

Will do....I've already got the acrylic so it wouldn't cost me anything so no harm done if it doesn't work right? The only thing that sucks is that the guy that operates the laser uses frikin corel draw so anything I draw up doesn't come out right when he loads it up.....

 

[smjtkj]

Feedin from the overflow. It is plumbed just like bill did his, so the pump is sucking water from the overflow and also recirculation
water.

 

[hahnmeister]

kentrob11,
I think bubble plates are overused in many skimmers where they arent needed. With your skimmer, I think that it might hurt your performance more than help it. I would go with your setup as is...if anything to reduce turbulence, split the outlets of your mixing pumps into 2 or 3 each to split up the flow.... but keep them facing downwards.

 

[smjtkj]

update pics

update pics

Well I have to say I am impressed with diffusor technology! Here are some pics from this morning to show how little turbulence is in the riser neck of the skimmer. This is a really small sewing needle for reference, not a pin! This is the bubbles in the riser neck. Typically you would see bubbles combining to form larger bubbles at this point in the riser neck. I assume it is due to the diffusor, but it may be the dome shaped cone. Whatever it is the foam is so stable it is scarry! Also I want to mention that I have added more air from the pump. So more air and no turbulence. I think it is allowing more air as the skimmer breaks in. Any way I am really excited about the performance if you couldn't tell!
Ha! Ha!

 

[spazz]

hahnmeister it seams like all your trying to do is pick another argument. this thread is not a place to pick a fight. its a place to share ideas and information not get everyones blood up. it seams you do this alot. i have see you on other threads doing the same thing your trying to do here.
im sure alot of people told eddison that he could never make the light bulb.
taking a negitave stance on new ideas is just un-american. so please stop.

 

[john f]

I do have to say this.....I get bubbles that small using a beckett injector.....with a TON of turbulence inside the skimmer.
That said.....my skimmer is not sufficient for my tank and I am working on a needle wheeel upgrade........but I'm not sure that small bubbles are exclusive to diffuser type skimmers.


John

 

[kentrob11]

Diffusers have nothing to do with bubble size INITIALLY. They kill off the turbulence so that the bubbles casually rise to the surface and STAY small until they pop at the surface. There's no turbulence to cause bubbles to colide and combine....

 

[john f]

Just to clarify...my bubbles in the neck are that small.

Reducing turbulence may allow a higher GPH thru the skimmer, which would aid efficiency..

I think the key thing is./...can you maintain small bubbles and still have high flow rates?

With a large enough diameter body and tall enough column, you may be able to get high flow rates and small bubbles using no diffuser plate....
At least we will see....

John

 

[kentrob11]

I think the real benefit of it is less disruption to the foam head....I'll wait and let Spazz chime in on this one for more clarification though....

 

[smjtkj]

kentrob, that is it on the money. It allows the foam head to remain undisturbed.
Mike

 

[smjtkj]

The biggest benefit to the needlewheel skimmer versus the beckett is the power consumption difference. There is no doubt that the becketts produce great bubble size and production. Their downfall is the required pressure pumps to get them to perform optimally.
Mike

 

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7858053#post7858053 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by spazz
hahnmeister it seams like all your trying to do is pick another argument. this thread is not a place to pick a fight. its a place to share ideas and information not get everyones blood up. it seams you do this alot. i have see you on other threads doing the same thing your trying to do here.
im sure alot of people told eddison that he could never make the light bulb.
taking a negitave stance on new ideas is just un-american. so please stop.

Spazz, I didnt see Hahn's comment as being nasty, negative, or unamerican in any sort of way. It was just a comment that in the case of that skimmer, a bubble plate may not help.


people CAN disagree with you without trying to "take a negative stance on new ideas"

 

[spazz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7859804#post7859804 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kentrob11
I think the real benefit of it is less disruption to the foam head....I'll wait and let Spazz chime in on this one for more clarification though....

im no real expert either. i feel it aids in the reduction of turbulance in the main chamber and allowes the DOC's that have a harder time attaching to an air bubble get a better grip on the air bubbles and stay attached. there are alot of DOC's that will attach in almost any condition. you can get good skimmate production and still not have a super effecient skimmer. the more you can mellow out the turbulance in the main chamber the more you will cleqan the water. it may only be 5% more but those are the hardest ones to get. and if they accumulate in the system then it will lead to dirty water and alage growth in the system. most DOC's can be removed very easy. great skimmers remove them all.
think of it this way. go outside during a light brease in the fall. try to catch a falling leaf in the light breeze. its not too hard to do. then go out in a violent wind and try to catch another leaf. you may catch a few but its alot harder to do.

 

[hahnmeister]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7858053#post7858053 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by spazz
hahnmeister it seams like all your trying to do is pick another argument. this thread is not a place to pick a fight. its a place to share ideas and information not get everyones blood up. it seams you do this alot. i have see you on other threads doing the same thing your trying to do here.
im sure alot of people told eddison that he could never make the light bulb.
taking a negitave stance on new ideas is just un-american. so please stop.

Why would you say that? You are one of the other people I know who would agree with the idea that bubble plates are not needed on skimmers that are taller/have multiple smaller pumps running. Sometimes a decent downdraft and downward pump discharge are better options, esp when trying to cram the outputs of 4 Oceanrunner pumps into a 10" disk. Im not trying to argue... it just seems that ever since you and Bill made some DIY bubble plates that there is a new fad where everyone wants to add a bubble plate to their skimmer even if its not a good idea.

So having blind faith in a design feature is more American? Being negative to new ideas isnt 'Un-American', nice try, but playing the patriotism card here doesnt work. Bubble plates are not new, and if anything, are a German implimented design feature (Bubble Kings, ATIs, Aquaconnect, etc..). They are implimented on pumps that are too large for shorter skimmers... pumps that if their outputs weren't diffused, the skimmer would be a stubby whirlpool. Keeping an open mind and questioning convention is more American than anything... its how this country was founded. Im not saying that bubble plates are bad all the time, just that they arent always the best solution. Cramming what seems to be 1200gph of bubbles and air to come out of a 10" disk (or less) might not be as good an idea as the way things are set up now... thats all.

Turbulence is made out to be this 'feared foe' of skimming, to the point that I think its being taken too far. Bubbles smash into each other on the way up after all no matter how calm the trip upward is.

Look at beckett and ETSS downdraft skimmers for instance. The injection/mixing columns where the water and air mix and the resulting froth travels downwards violently is actually considered to be 'dwell time'. The actual 'calm' moments that the mix might have are in the black box at the bottom of the bubble riser and some of the way up into the collection chamber. Its a short distance, and a violent passage, yet these skimmers can still pull loads of black, chunky, baby-pooh gunk from the collection cup.

Just something to think about... or perhaps next time it would be more American of me to not post anything if it doesnt agree with what others think...:jester:

 

[spazz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7861144#post7861144 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister
Why would you say that? You are one of the other people I know who would agree with the idea that bubble plates are not needed on skimmers that are taller/have multiple smaller pumps running.

this is not true. i feel any skimmer can benefit from reduced turbulence in any way possible. this is why I have been working on it. the big problem with the multi pump skimmers like deltec's are designing a diffuser system that works and is not taking up a huge amount of room in the main chamber.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7861144#post7861144 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister

Turbulence is made out to be this 'feared foe' of skimming, to the point that I think its being taken too far. Bubbles smash into each other on the way up after all no matter how calm the trip upward is.

Look at beckett and ETSS downdraft skimmers for instance. The injection/mixing columns where the water and air mix and the resulting froth travels downwards violently is actually considered to be 'dwell time'. The actual 'calm' moments that the mix might have are in the black box at the bottom of the bubble riser and some of the way up into the collection chamber. Its a short distance, and a violent passage, yet these skimmers can still pull loads of black, chunky, baby-pooh gunk from the collection cup.

in my mind i would rather have the absolute best performance a skimmer can have. this is why i keep playing around with different ideas. the beckett skimmer is old tech. yes it works. but it dont work as well as alot of needle wheel skimmers do. there just very cheap to build and there for appeal to the beginners a lot more than a $1500 deltec skimmer would.

 

[hahnmeister]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7862062#post7862062 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by spazz
this is not true. i feel any skimmer can benefit from reduced turbulence in any way possible. this is why I have been working on it. the big problem with the multi pump skimmers like deltec's are designing a diffuser system that works and is not taking up a huge amount of room in the main chamber.

^^^ what you just said there is exactly what Im saying might be the case with the skimmer that smjtkj has made which is pretty much a 'multi-pump skimmer like deltec's'. See, we agree.:smokin:

in my mind i would rather have the absolute best performance a skimmer can have. this is why i keep playing around with different ideas. the beckett skimmer is old tech. yes it works. but it dont work as well as alot of needle wheel skimmers do. there just very cheap to build and there for appeal to the beginners a lot more than a $1500 deltec skimmer would.

Im all for needlewheels as well... but my reasoning is based on their lower wattage. But I know that becketts, venturis, and downdrafts still have advantages in other ways (like higher ORP values and being able to handle taller skimmers). If I were to suggest that they are all old tech and therefore not worth using... I know I would have a few people out for my head. They still have a value, esp when we are talking about larger reefs that are 300g+ in volume.

But back on the topic at hand... I agree with you... I would rather have the best performance possible as well. Im just saying that while I agree that in many cases this will be a neeldewheel skimmer, I dont agree that a bubble plate is going to give you the best performance possible. It could work against you.