Tip for everyone incase you have PM

[jwalters103]

i am curious as to why all of the work to establish a dna profile for a protozoan that may or may not be responsable for pm. in my opinion, tests need to be done proving definitively that the protozoan is the cause and which protozoan is the cause before going through with the trouble and cost of working up a dna profile.

i have my own theory about the cause

i have 3 croceas currently with pm. i have had them for about a year now, and one of them had pm when i got it. it slowly spread to the other 2 and to a maxima that was already in my tank. the maxima died at about 6 months with pm. in the last couple of months i have added a 14 inch gigas and a 1 inch maxima. neither show any signs of pm. the thing that the clams with pm had in commom is a red, viney, turflike algae on the shell. when looking at the inside of the shell of the maxima after it died, i noticed a discoloration similar to that shown in knopps book under the section "boring algae" i have some of this turflike algae also growing on the rocks that the clams were on. now, what got me to thinking that this had something to do with the pm is this---one of the croceas with pm only has this algae growing on one side and when i looked at the new growth area on the shell i realized only one side of the shell had grown at all, and guess which side it was---the side with no algae growing on it. the fact that all my clams with pm have visible and apparent boring algae, and the healthy clams do not, led me to my conclusion. my hypothesis that is that boring algaes, sponges, or other life forms are burrowing in and irritating the clam from the inside out and this is causing the mantle to curl. this could also explain the fact the by the time the mantle curls, it is too late as there may already be considerable damage/irritation internally.

providing optimal conditions for these algaes to flourish may cause the pm to manifest, and dont forget, the iron in po4 removers is fertilizer for algae, so the addition of these po4 removers may jump start the algae growth causing pm to manifest

since having this thought, i have been doing freshwater dips and scouring my clamshells with a green brillo pad type thing for dishes to get rid of as much of the turf as possibly and the clams seem to be responding

just my thoughts and experiences on the subject

 

[ezcompany]

you should definitely forward that to Barry @ clamsdirect

 

[jwalters103]

i was wanting to compare notes with other people to see if they had anything wierd growing on their shells before i did.

 

[mbbuna]

i forwarded your post to Barry. i have some comments also but give me some time

 

[jwalters103]

no prob

 

[jay24k]

My second clam died even after the FW dip. I didn't have any red stuff on either clam. I have both clam shells and both were a very clean white on the inside. I also noticed a very odd thing.

Everyone kind of know that no one really knows what linkias feed off of. As soon as the clam was dead, my blue linkia was all in the clam feeding on it for the whole day and part of the next. After the clam was completely gone except it's foot, the starfish went off on his business. Kind of neat even if it was a 50 dollar treat.

 

[jwalters103]

i actually misspoke. i am not saying this red algae would be the only cause, im saying i think it is my cause. i would label any boring algae, boring sponge, pyram snail that is already sunk into the clam, bristleworm, or anything causing irritation/damge internally to the clam as the cause of pm. i am thinking that pm is the physical manifestation of any internal damage/irritation to a clam regardless of what the cause. jay24k's comment reassures me a bit in this thought as his prob was not a boring algae. im thinking it is sort of the way a fever is the physical manifestation of infection and other maladies in humans--the outward symptom is the same, but the infection could be caused by any number of pathogens. it is possible that pm is caused by a protozoan, though i do not think that it is the sole cause. i think it is a response rather than an actual specific disease caused by a specific pathogen.

i also think that the temporary recovery after a fwd is that the freshwater dip has weakened the pathogen , easing the clams distress.

i would also tend to think that any protozoan on a clam would be killed almost immediately with a freshwater dip from osmotic shock. this being the case, i dont think it would appear in a tank that has never seen any livestock if all the affected clams were fwd before put into the new tank. well, i tried that experiment a few months ago and it failed miserably.

as for the po4 remover as a contributor, in my case (boring algae) and other peoples case (protozoan???) the pathogens are fueled by iron found in po4 removers

 

[jay24k]

I didn't mean to say that you were wrong on the algea. I just was pointing out my experience. Yours could be just one aspect of it. Almost kind of like SPS RTN from alk/lighting/water quality issues. There could be a few factors to cause a clam to just go downhill.

 

[jwalters103]

no, i get what youre saying, in fact, i was sort of asking if anyone saw any types of funny businees going on with their clams rather than just assuming that it is a protozoan because they heard someone else say it was a protozoan

i actually am really interested in seeing why the people at clamsdirect are leaning toward that as the cause

 

[mbbuna]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9601151#post9601151 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jwalters103
i am curious as to why all of the work to establish a dna profile for a protozoan that may or may not be responsable for pm. in my opinion, tests need to be done proving definitively that the protozoan is the cause and which protozoan is the cause before going through with the trouble and cost of working up a dna profile.

this is from the scientist's at U of Maine

Please feel free to pass this message along to anyone you wish. We have sectioned all tissues and we have seen various stages of the ‘protozoan’ (a term we used simply for the general public description) primarily in gill and mantle. Also, from tissue homogenates it has been particularly easy to repeatedly culture hypnospores suggestive of a Perkinsis species. We have cataloged pictures which we will be providing with the completed report. For confirmation purposes, we have performed PCR testing on the cultured hypnospores and the results are POSITIVE(just received today) for Perkinsis but the negative for the specifically targeted Perkinsis olseni. We are now in the process of sequencing the positive Perkinsis DNA to determine exactly what species it is.

this is from Barry N.

The purpose of the requested additional funding was not to identify a pathogen as we have essentially done that. Additional funding is being asked for to 1) prove the disease postulate (the Perkinsis species does or doesn’t cause mortality), and 2) to research a feasible and effective therapy option.

 

[ezcompany]

here is my Black and White, you can see the mantle discoloration from the lack of light while it was in the acrylic box, you can also see its incurrent siphon has no "hair" lining the sides as it has been eaten by the 6 line. you can see the two extra holes above the incurrent siphon, the first hole right above it (smaller hole) used to be bigger, you can tell by the oval dark shape around it. the larger hole on top is still healing. algae growth has been terrible as nothing was allowed to touch the clam for weeks. i have only now removed it from the box since the six line is in custody.

 

[DrDNA]

This is just a random thought, but has anyone tried using any anti-protozoan meds on a clam with PM (i.e. metronidazole)?

Also, does anyone know who the folks are at UMaine who are working on the PM issue? Just curious since I was an undergrad there....

 

[mbbuna]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9695439#post9695439 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DrDNA
This is just a random thought, but has anyone tried using any anti-protozoan meds on a clam with PM (i.e. metronidazole)?

Metro has been tried and is ineffective.

Also, does anyone know who the folks are at UMaine who are working on the PM issue? Just curious since I was an undergrad there....

Barry mentioned there names to me but i dont remember. im sure if you e-mail Barry@clamsdirect.com he will tell you