Treating ich

[MarkKlier]

Okay went through a couple cycles of ich and the hippo tang was doing poorly. So tonight I pulled all the fish. Will treat initially with some copper safe, drop the sg to 1015. Then I think I will drop down to 1010. Going to go "fishless" for...well at least 30 days. I have seen recommendations for 60 days..
any input?

 

[titoav15]

When I bought a hippo way back when, I went through this stage... it stinks! Luckily I was able to catch it in the beg stage and I used some kick ich, and that did the job, never came back (kick ich is reef safe btw). Other than that, stressful but works is a fw dip.
hth, good luck!

 

[tmz]

Cysts have remained viable without a fish host for up to 72 days in one study but that was in relatively cold water.
Usually 6 weeks does the trick but to be extra cautious, I'd go 72 days and/or warm up the qt tank some( say slowly to 82 degrees F) to accelerate metabolic rates and the life cycle of the parasite.

If you use the copper treatment you don't really need the hypo.In fact the hypo may slow the parasite down and complicate the copper treatment. I'd probably go around 1.020 or so to make the fish work less.

A fresh water dip will only remove those parasites on the skin of the fish and maybe a few in the gills. It will not erradicte ich. It's usually a desperate measure for a fish that can't breathe and gives some fast relief as does a formalin bath.
I would not use kick ich or any other "reef safe " ich med on a reeftank and doubt any of them work to erradicate the ich in any case.
Treatment in quarantine tank is the way to deal with it with a fishless display.

 

[acdraindrps]

Mark, I suggest that instead of doing a copper treatment along with hyposalinity, go with one or the other. With that said, I think that copper is more effective than hyposalinity, and that along with periodic fw dips is the best route for ich.

 

[MarkKlier]

I think you guys are correct on the copper and hyposalinity. I'm at 1015 right now. Probably going to leave it there. Did use copersafe.
Need to catch the mandarin. The article indicates that these are sensative to copper. So need to figure that one out.

Titoav15, probably was one of the first ever to use "kick-ich". It does not make the tank "ich free". But oddly does seem to help to a degree.

These are to good sources that I agree with...
Last power outage damaged my computer at work...so will update later tonight.


http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/fish-diseases-treatments/23132-marine-ich-myths-facts.html

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php

MK

 

[Conesus_Kid]

Here's another vote for 72 days of fishless display tank. This, combined with prophylactic treatment of any new additions will guarantee an ich-free tank. To me, this is well worth the extra effort.

 

[tmz]

Generally , mandarins are pretty resistant to ich and may be sensitive to copper or so the anecdotal information goes.
You could treat it separately via tank transfer using small tanks. Move it from one tank to another every 3 days for a total of 4 transfers. If a tank is reused in this process ,it and associated equipment must be throroughly dired or soaked in fresh water for at least 4 hours before putting it back in line.

 

[acdraindrps]

Here's another vote for 72 days of fishless display tank. This, combined with prophylactic treatment of any new additions will guarantee an ich-free tank. To me, this is well worth the extra effort.

Keep in mind that no matter how hard you try, you are never guaranteed an ich free tank.

Mark, don't put that mandarin in any more copper!

 

[bigdoug]

Do NOT combine copper and hypo, more than likely your fish will die. I just went through an ich battle, I used hypo on some and cupramine on others. I also tried the kick ich, rid ich, and ich attack for future reference. The hypo and cupramine both worked great, I prefered the cupramine, it was easier for me. The "reef safe" treatments were a waste of money. My hippo is the only fish still in treatment, it got a bacteria infection after the ich was gone, so it is now treated with paraguard. Be prepared for some secondary infections after ich treatment. In all I treated 8 fish and only lost one, a sailfin tang, also has a secondary infection. Good luck and don't rush it. Time on an fishless tank is key to eridicating it from your dt. Lastly I put my mandarin goby and scooter blenny through the hypo, even though with their slime coat they did not show signs of ich.

 

[tmz]

In the first article linked , the poster notes complexed copper meds are less of a concern with hypo salinity induced ph drops increasing toxicity than non complexed meds. This sems to be backwards or just a non issue unless I'm missing something.

First of all there is no reason to think lower ph would necessarily occur at lower sg.

Second, free copper is the most toxic and though it may shift in proportions from species to species (CuO3 to Cu(OH)+ or from Cu SO4 to Cu or other species for example) at variable ph, it wouldn't effect the toxicity a far as I know. Since a free copper med like copper sulfate(CuSO4) is already in the most toxic form you can't really make it more so.
On the other hand a ph shift might or might not have an effect on the complexing agent in a complexed med though this isn't likely unless the agent is particularly sensitive to the H+ concentration.

One word of caution. Don't use Amquel,Ammo Lock or other ammonia binders when using copper meds, the combination is lethal.

 

[Conesus_Kid]

Keep in mind that no matter how hard you try, you are never guaranteed an ich free tank.

Perhaps, but I'll take a 99.9% chance of cryto-free aquarium any day of the week over "dump and pray".

I have a hard time seeing how crypto would make it in if you treat every new fish prophylactically with copper for a few weeks before it sees the display tank, but I'll concede that there's probably a chance for it to happen.

 

[Gravesj1s]

Rawfish foods can carry parasites frozen or not.Similar to humans contracting parasities from undercooked pork.
I dont see away around this unless its cooked or you dont use any frozen fish foods.

 

[Willistein]

So ich can come from frozen foods? I've never heard of this before, interesting... any links to info?

 

[Conesus_Kid]

The only frozen food I feed is PE mysis, a freshwater organism. No fear of crypto, even if it can be transmitted via food, (which I doubt anyways until I see a reliable link stating thus.)

 

[acdraindrps]

Perhaps, but I'll take a 99.9% chance of cryto-free aquarium any day of the week over "dump and pray".

I have a hard time seeing how crypto would make it in if you treat every new fish prophylactically with copper for a few weeks before it sees the display tank, but I'll concede that there's probably a chance for it to happen.

I once thought the same way you are thinking, but then my clown babies (with no introduction of any other fish) contacted ich about a month after hatching, despite vigorous attempt at keeping a sterile environment. (free from parasites)

Ich is present in your tank right now, even though you can't see any physical signs of it on your fish. When/if your fish are stressed for some reason, it'll show.

This is what I was getting at when I said you'll never have a 100% ich free tank.

 

[MarkKlier]

This thread is going in a good direction (better then usual for an ich thread). Acdraindrps, I think it is one thing to say it is hard to clear, it is another to imply that you can't clear it.
Okay for an update...last night the hippo could not see because of the infection. Covered stern to tail. NOT labored breathing. Achilles had about 70% coverage. Nasso, no sign. Forgot to catch the madarin (lucky guy
Today all are eating in the 30gal breeder. Both tangs look much better. SG at 1015, going to leave it there. Did treat with coppersafe.
Keep you posted...
MK

 

[Gravesj1s]

No laws or set standards regulating for quality control that Im aware of for "fish food".A cited study directly on Ick and marine fish I haven't looked for.Spotte does make some reference in his writings ,Ill see if I can find something.

I have seen some that show how its passed through digestion but not directly on ick ,at the moment anyway.Something like this

www.dpd.cdc.gov/dpdx/HTML/Anisakiasis.htm

Seen another paper that noted temp extremes with surviability range -30F 15days to over 140f before the parasitic fish were safe to eat.

 

[acdraindrps]

Mark, have you tried to fw dip the tangs?

 

[tmz]

I never heard or read crytocaryon irritans could be passed in frozen or raw foods unless they were quite fresh or kept wet with seawater . Don't see how it could given the life cycle of the parasite.

 

[tmz]

Mark ,
Glad to hear they apparently got through that round of infection. Now that the parasites have left them they will do better. The parasites that left the fish will settle on surfaces and form protomites/ tomites by 200 fold. Then the the free swiming stage will come out looking for fish. This free swimming stage is when they are vulnerable to copper and sometimes hypo. If it's a a therapuetic level they should die before reaching the fish again. Typically they hatch at night.