Treating with Vitamin C

[Peter Eichler]

Furthermore... The fact that the use is so much realted to zoanthids is somewhat concerning. Honestly, zoanthids as a whole are such an easy thing to keep alive that you almost have to question what someone is doing so drastically wrong that they're having problems with zoanthids in the first place. Not saying that I haven't had my own peaks and valleys, but if you're having struggles with zoanthids as a whole without vitamin C additions, there's something very wrong.

 

[Pufferpunk]

What about the positive effects it has on my healthy corals?

 

[montanabay]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12722105#post12722105 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by OCEAN SIZE
Phenomenal work Montanabay. Seriously.

Are polyps in lps / sps constructed of collagen ?

thanks ocean size.

yes, collagen is the tough, rubbery "skin" or structural body of soft corals which provides stability and resistance to deformation.

In hard or stony corals the collagen is "assisted" by spicules of calcium carbonate.

This is way many soft corals are low current loving species, because high current will force them to fold or collapse and is also why stony corals thrive in high current, their calcium carbonate infrastructure allows them to with stand it.

 

[montanabay]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12722740#post12722740 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Peter Eichler
I'm still a skeptic, but I'm certainly not willing to write off vitamin C as nothing more than a carbon source. Many of the experiences posted here and elsewhere point to ascorbic acid acting as a carbon source, from lowered nitrates to reduction of nuisance algae and bacterial blooms, so I still feel that's part of the benefit. So, I'm interested in seeing the PDF's you have. If you need to email them, send them to pseichler@yahoo.com

I'd also like to see Borneman, Veron, Randy H. Farley, and maybe even Greenbean review the articles as well since they will be able to decipher them much better than I will.

Thanks Much!
Peter

pdf's on the way.

those are common observation, here is my educated guess to an explanation:

1) If ascorbic acid does act as a collagen stimulant, the corals will need nutrients like N to build new cells, acting as a N sink.

2) Algae is a photosynthetic organism, that also has to deal with oxygen radicals and toxicity. A boost in antioxidant could allow for increase photosynthetic efficiency, therefor an algae bloom.

3) Algae needs N to grow, if it is ultra photosynthetically active and blooming, it will be sinking N from the system (like chateo, it is an algae!).

I've been scouring text books, asking friends and searching online, for the life of me I can't find any info on adsorbate being used as a carbon source. I can't even find a possible chemical reaction or pathway that can reduce ascorbate back to glucose or any other sugar....I really don't think it is possible.

My friend whose conversation posted above is a biochemical graduate student, her work is actually in marine chemistry. I posed the question about ascorbic acid being a carbon source to her and shot it down after reviewing the literature on it.

I will not say that you are wrong, but I will ask that you find evidence of this before I embrace it, otherwise I have to stick to the science.

I would also like to thank everyone for their patience with my posts, I'm not a marine biologist or a biochemist, I am a ecologist, so I'm also learning as we go and I welcome the skeptism and questions, because it forces me to further explain, define, and clarify this theory.

 

[toaster77]

good job montanabay.

As a biochemist, everything you've wrote and dug up makes sense to me, as I supported this anti-oxidant theory in a few posts buried in this thread somewhere.

Also agree that definitely glucose does not get converted to ascorbate. However, I would bet that if you left a bottle of ascorbate out in the open after some time, it would get contaminated by mold or bacteria. This would suggest that whatever was growing in it figured out a way to metabolize the ascorbate (or its decomposition products) into building blocks required for growth. You would be surprised at the clever metabolic strategies of some microorganisms.

So, although I highly support the anti-oxidant theory, I think it remains formally possible ascorbate could be used as a carbon source (albeit very inefficiently).

 

[toaster77]

also i'm starting to like this collagen theory as well:

I'm not an M.D., but here is some info about scurvy (taken from Wikipedia):

Vitamin C deficiency causes scurvy, a serious and painful disease in which defective collagen prevents the formation of strong connective tissue. Gums deteriorate and bleed, with loss of teeth; skin discolors, and wounds do not heal. Prior to the eighteenth century, this condition was notorious among long duration military, particularly naval, expeditions during which participants were deprived of foods containing Vitamin C. In the human body, a malfunction of the immune system, called an autoimmune disease, results in an immune response in which healthy collagen fibers are systematically destroyed with inflammation of surrounding tissues. The resulting disease processes are called Lupus erythematosus, and rheumatoid arthritis, or collagen tissue disorders.

I looked up the biochemistry of collagen synthesis, and ascorbate is required as a cofactor. therefore, if ascorbate is not very abundant, addition of ascorbate could certainly promote collagen biosynthesis. however, if ascorbate is already very abundant or cells have synthesized adequate ascorbate, then addition of ascorbate may not have much effect. this fact could help explain certain observations pertaining to those who use nutrient-deprivation methods. Thus depending on the level of nutrients in the system you could potentially predict how effective ascorbate dosing would be.

 

[montanabay]

I'm starting to think the same thing Toaster77.

Zoanthids rely heavily on collagen for structural support, as other corals utilize calcium carbonate. This might explain why the zoanthids start "melting" away while other corals do okay.

Think about it the structure of the zoanthid, tough rubber collagen skin on the outside, with a gelly like internal, if the coral is deficient in ascorbic acid and can't produce collagen skin, it would appear to be melting.

 

[toaster77]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12725186#post12725186 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by montanabay
I'm starting to think the same thing Toaster77.

Zoanthids rely heavily on collagen for structural support, as other corals utilize calcium carbonate. This might explain why the zoanthids start "melting" away while other corals do okay.

Think about it the structure of the zoanthid, tough rubber collagen skin on the outside, with a gelly like internal, if the coral is deficient in ascorbic acid and can't produce collagen skin, it would appear to be melting.

right on! can you say Q.E.D.?

 

[montanabay]

Here is a paper assessing ascorbic acid content in algae. In some of the species the ascorbic acid content was higher during growth stages than when it was stationary (not actively multiplying).

They also found that ascorbic acid content in algae increases in cultures as lighting length and intensity increased.

This would support the idea that photosythetic activity and ascorbic acid are link, so supplementation of ascorbic acid could allow algae to be more productive, causing a possible algae bloom.


Journal Title - Journal of Applied Phycology
Article Title - The ascorbic acid content of eleven species of microalgae used in mariculture
Volume - Volume 4
Issue - 3
First Page - 205
Last Page - 215
Issue Cover Date - 1992-09-29

Author - Malcolm R. Brown
Author - Kelly A. Miller
DOI - 10.1007/BF02161206
Link - http://www.springerlink.com/content/wvp446182r51l76m

 

[Jeff]

I hope you guys are right. I just started dosing vitamin c again after 2.5 months being off of it. My softies have suffered because of it. We will seen in 3-4 weeks if they come around.

 

[SW_nOOb_SC]

Really? My softies seem to be taking it up and using it like its the fountain of youth! I've noticed major growth and splitting in all of my rics and shrooms. And the GSP is looking great and spreading.

The SPS are coloring up and extending polyps better then they were.

And my zoas all look 5 times more healthy now that i am dosing VC. Only thing i can contribute growth in all of these to is the VC, its the only thing i've changed recently!

So far i'm sold.

 

[Jeff]

Sorry, I meant that my softies have suffered because of being off vitamin C for 2.5 months. I just started back on it last night.

 

[SW_nOOb_SC]

Oh ok, sounds good. My coral love it. Hmmm wonder how much better it could make me look if i took some?

 

[Pufferpunk]

Fantastic--that's exactly what is happening in my tank. What ppm are you at now?

My GSP looks like a forest!

 

[JAMDivers]

This is a very interesting thread....and I have hung in there for all of it! I am wondering a couple of things:

1) For all the folks who posted (both good and bad experiences with VC) how long have/had your tanks been established upon your initial dosing of VC? (weeks, months, years?)

and

2) I recently had an instance where my frogspawn and a couple of mushrooms almost bleached during an attempt to upgrade lighting to MHs. Both corals are on the recovery path with some extra TLC. But I am wondering if a VC treatment would aid in cases of bleached or nearly bleached corals trying to regain or rebuild their zooxanthellae populations? So far (that I can remember) only zoos have been discussed at length.

And if so, should I do a full treatment in increments up to 30ppm or just begin an incremental dosage (up to) 5ppm?

Would love to hear comments....Thanks

 

[Pufferpunk]

1) About a year
2) Start at 5ppm & raise it up by 5ppm every 3 days

If VC rebuilds collagen (as hypothesized recently), it may halp some of your corals to grow back "skin" where it had bleached but I don't really know much about SPS. Any time one of mine bleached, I fragged off the healthy branches & started over with them as frags.

Many people (including myself) have noticed great improvements in all our corals, not just the zoanthids.

 

[jeweldamsel]

I have mine set up for over 2 years before dosing VC. I figured my VC (& other vitamins and trace elements) was drained overtime. After dosing VC, my corals show major improvement.

 

[Peter Eichler]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12736354#post12736354 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Pufferpunk
1) About a year
2) Start at 5ppm & raise it up by 5ppm every 3 days

If VC rebuilds collagen (as hypothesized recently), it may halp some of your corals to grow back "skin" where it had bleached but I don't really know much about SPS. Any time one of mine bleached, I fragged off the healthy branches & started over with them as frags.

Many people (including myself) have noticed great improvements in all our corals, not just the zoanthids.

When a coral bleaches it doesn't lose "skin", it's simply a result of it expelling zooxanthellae.

Also, several people have reported what they believe to be problems as a result of the dosing, and even many more have had great results with these easy to keep "corals" and all other corals with never dosing vitamin C.

Sorry, just trying to keep people grounded and realistic. I've seen too many fads and miracle cures like this come and go in the hobby to get too excited about dosing vitamin C. In fact, vitamin C has been that fad a couple other times.

 

[Pufferpunk]

Told ya I know nothing about SPS...

 

[jeweldamsel]

I am also one of the reefers that see major coral improvements after dosing with VC.