Treating with Vitamin C

[montanabay]

Jeff,

Sorry for the ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œcut and pasteââ"šÂ¬Ã‚, I donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t always have the energy to spell everything out. Also, please keep in mind that I'm not just doing this for the heck of it, I'm trying to figure out what *might* be happening when dosing VC and that I do my best to know what I'm talking about before making comments like "wild guess" or "unproven". I have done my best to be a good sport on this thread because I understand this is not a scientific community participating in this dialog, but interested reef keepers and I have defended my theories and refuted others with respect and information, that's all I ask in return.

This paragraph "cut and paste" from the article, clearly shows that it is not a "wild guess" or that the function of ascorbate in collagen is not "unproven" in corals, it is definitely playing role.

ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œThe addition of ascorbic acid to the culture media increased collagen production by 40% in M. digitata cell cultures (4.4 0.2 weight percent collagen relative to total protein without ascorbic acid compared with 6.2 0.5% with ascorbic acid; P 0.01; Fig. 2); however, it had no significant effect on collagen production in X. elongata cell cultures (6.0 0.4% without ascorbic acid and 7.1 0.7% with ascorbic acid; P 0.05). These results suggest either that collagen production in X. elongata cell cultures, in contrast to M. digitata, is independent of ascorbate (33) or that ascorbate is not a limiting substrate for the formation of hydroxyproline. Indeed, when cells were cultured in the absence of ascorbic acid, the fraction of ECMââ"šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Å“collagen of X. elongata was significantly higher than that of M. digitata cell cultures (P 0.05; Fig. 2).ââ"šÂ¬Ã‚

<a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/Josh.Harmsen/Ascorbate/photo#5225184532568846482"><img src="http://lh6.ggpht.com/Josh.Harmsen/SIOVpe2hsJI/AAAAAAAABDE/-Q48H_SzfL4/s800/graph1.jpg" /></a>

 

[montanabay]

So Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ve been looking into more about why zoas might melt and well there are a lot of papers out there that discuss coral bleaching, mostly in respect to stony corals, but what about bleaching in soft corals like zoas? Right before my zoas started melting they became grayish/white or bleached. Has anyone else experienced this before ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œmeltingââ"šÂ¬Ã‚?

There are two major causes for bleaching in wild reefs or in simplest terms the expulsion of the colorful, symbiont algae (=zooxanthellae) from the coral are temperature stress and excessive UV radiation.

Now temperature stress (excessively high or swings) seems fairly common in reef keeping, but what about UV stress? I remember reading that towards the end of a PC lights life it emits more UV spectrum, anyone know more on this?

I also came across this paper, in which they tested on live coral the effect of temperature and UV radiation on the expulsion of zooxanthellae. What they did was stress the corals into bleaching by radically changing the temperature to extremes in one group and also by shocking them with excessive UV in another. In both cases they also tested the affect of dosed ascorbate and mannitol another powerful antioxidant.

What they found was that the dosed acorbate significantly reduced the number of zoaxanthellae expelled from the coral, limiting the extent of bleaching.

The authors describe how both temperature and UV cause excessive amounts of oxidative radicals from metabolic processes related to photosynthesis that act as toxins in the tissue, causing cell and tissue death, expelling the zoaxanthellae.

What was also interesting in the paper was their concern that ascorbate would be rapidly oxidized when introduced to sea water and light. To avoid this they created a ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œdoseââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ chamber, which had the same water parameters, but was not lit (why not just turn off the lights?).

Long story short, this paper shows that dosed ascorbate in sea water with live corals will act as an antioxidant, reducing tissue damage from excessive oxiradicals and allowing the coral to retain the essential zooxanthallae.

An important points from this article

1) Dosed ascorbate into sea water is taken up by live corals
2) Ascrobate does act as an antioxidant in corals
3) Ascrobate will oxidize rapidly in light
4) When dosing they used of 125 uM ascorbate in sea water (I will try to convert this to our dosing scheme).

My thoughts/recommendations:

1) Make sure you are dosing at lights out and maybe even reduce concentration, since it will persist longer.
2) Make sure old bulbs donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t emit excessive UV
3) Monitor temperature swings and try to minimize

Here is the paper, please PM if you would like a pdf copy.

Lesser MP (1997) Oxidative stress causes coral bleaching during exposure to elevated temperatures. Coral Reefs 16:187ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Å“192

 

[JAMDivers]

Welcome back MBay!

You know I am glad to see that you can express what I am thinking! Also, when I included the link for this particular paper for consideration in the thread, I didn't realize that you had also submitted the same one! Sorry I wasn’t trying to steal your thunder. I just did my own search for scientific experiments pertaining to this topic. Oh well! Just glad it is getting a nod of consideration now because it seems to be a noteworthy paper.

Interestingly enough, as you summarized, in the first paper, it shows that in the presence of VC, it wasn't shown to give a "significant" boost to the growth/formation of cells in Xenia. (One might think it would be similar in zoanthids since they are soft corals too?)But in fact, it was shown to be more important to the production and growth in the cells of stony corals! Which is so interesting because most folks on this thread have only talked about zoanthid growth & repair and not stonies so far here as an example.

And as far as dosing with the lights off, since I haven’t read the second paper, did they mention what the pH was of their VC solution. I think what most everyone is dosing with is the iHerb version of Sodium Ascorbate Crystalline powder that has been buffered to 7.1. And if dosing at night, wouldn’t it possibly drive the pH down even further (unless you have a pH controller or a refugium with macroalgae lit on an opposite schedule of the main reef)? Or would it be best to dose just after the lights go out on the reef while the pH is still relatively high so it stays in solution longer? I too agree with a lower dosage amount and I’ll explain more in my next post where I will share similar results to the first paper, that I experienced in my tank over the past month.

Thanks

 

[JAMDivers]

Well, here are my personal results and observations from when I started dosing VC in the middle of June until now. I did the best I could with the pics guys so go easy ok?

My dosing schedule for 60gallon cube started on 14 June 2008:

Week 1: ¼ tsp twice/day = 5 ppm VC solution
Week 2: ½ tsp twice/day = 10 ppm VC solution
Week 3: ¾ tsp twice/day = 15 ppm VC solution (6 days)
Week 4: went on vacation, no VC administration for 9 days
Week 5: ½ tsp twice/day for 3 days; then ¾ tsp twice/day for 3 days; 1 tsp twice/day = 20 ppm for 1 day; lost Acropora specimen; did water change; stopped VC for one day;


Results after one month:

What I have noticed is after the addition of VC, there was a growth spurt in both of my Montipora caps (although I think they tend to be fastgrowers anyway in the right conditions);

splitting of a Hammer and a Frogspawn;

new polyp growth in my Goniopora coral (not pictured) and better color and PE in my Acropora sp.

(to be continued in next post...)

 

[JAMDivers]

(post continued...)

Although I had no problems with my zoanthids from the start, I did notice a significant increase in the growth of two colonies.What I don’t know is if this is a standard growth rate for the zoas or not, but am I pleased with the overall result so far. I started off with only 4 polyps of these, now there are 10.

and started off with 5 polyps of these and they have more than doubled,

Also, I did notice that the growth in the zoanthid colonies did slow down and almost stop when I went on vacation. However, when I started dosing again, increased growth continued with the formation of several new polyps.

Also, there was some slight growth in my Xenia, although it was not significant by any means (similiar to the results of the first paper mentioned).

I also noticed an overall decrease in the film algae that grows on the glass. When I stopped dosing VC, the film returned within a couple of days time.

I only lost one coral (a yellow Acropora suharsonoi frag pictured below) during this phase on the first day I increased my dosage to 20ppm. After the second daily dose (1tsp), I went out for a few hours. When I returned, the tissue on the coral looked as if it had peeled up, almost like RTN.

I tested the water and all chems were within normal parameters, with the exception of a lowered pH of 7.8 (which had otherwise been stable at 8.2). I’m guessing that it was just too rapid of a change in pH that caused the coral to be stressed and bleach. I performed a water change and administered no VC the following day (July 19th).

20 July 2008: Started back with ½ tsp only once today but will go back to twice per day tomorrow.

There wasn’t much info (that I can remember anyway) on the thread until recently about what ppm to stop at (5, 10, 25 or 30-50ppm) as it is anyone’s guess at this trial stage. LexSkizzle brought it up most recently and Jeff answered at around 5ppm for preventative maintenance. I tend to agree, but I’ve found that 10ppm seems to work well with no harmful side effects. Even as far as 15ppm worked well, but sometimes less is more. I know others have gone with higher doses for longer periods of time but I feel there is no need to go up in the dosage (in my own experience) just to maintain color and growth, but I do feel this is a worthwhile addition to my reef tank.

So, I hope this helps…I will continue to dose VC in my tank and give another update in a month.

Thanks

 

[Peter Eichler]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12985219#post12985219 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by montanabay
**Sorry this is on old topic, I’ve been 300miles away from internet the last three weeks**

Peter,

Have you had a chance to read the PNAS paper I posted a few pages back (from when you made this comment) and that JAMdivers just reposted? They specifically test ascorbate in coral tissue (both common in our home reefs) production related to collagen and in both cases it shows an increase in collagen production. Although it was not a significant (95% confidence of difference over control group) there was still a noticeable increase in the soft coral and a significant increase in the stony coral’s collagen production. Overall 10% (not enough to be *significant*) increase in collagen production for the soft coral and close to 20% in the stony.

When you continue to make comments like this it is incredibly frustrating, I have presented both papers that show how ascorbate reduces the ill affects of oxidant toxins produced in corals during photosynthesis and also how it attributes to collagen production. To ignore this legitimate information and to cling to the theory that VC is acting as a carbon source (so far based solely on anecdotal observation), even though chemically and metabolically it is extremely unlikely is even more frustrating.

I do appreciate you skepticism and your experience/feedback on this matter and will begin another literature review to try to determine if any organisms have been shown to use ascorbate as a carbon source (focusing on algae and bacteria). It would also be helpful if you could help strengthen your theory and hopefully we can continue to move this discussion forward.

Again, like I have said many times before, these are theories that I have formed on a literature review and have not been proven in experimentation. Therefore it should not be embraced as the be-all explanation to why VC dosing has shown positive affects in our tanks, but merely a possible explanation that is backed by current and reviewed science.

Cheers,

Josh

Yes, I've read it, and a good portion of it was over my head. However, it does seem to me that you're drawing conclusions that were not intended from this article. Also, these corals were in culture dishes, and they speak in the article about what obstacles this method of coral study presents. And again, it seems difficult to make them jump from their methods of study to the home aquarium. Also, just using common sense, coral seems to have a "mind" of their own. There are countless times that I've fragged zoanthid polyps and placed equal frags right next to one another in virtually identical confitions. One frag doubles in a month or two later and one frag has a good number more polyps than another one...

Randy, a chemist, conmfirmed in the time that you were away that ascorbic acid could be used as a carbon source. Eric Borneman also believed it was quite possible. Then also consider stearic acid which is a listed ingredient on some if not all the ascorbic acid supplements people are using. "Stearic acid undergoes the typical reactions of unsaturated carboxylic acids, notably reduction to stearyl alcohol, and esterification with a range of alcohols." Whether or not that reduction will take place in an aquarium I don't know, but it seems to further support ascorbic acid being used as a carbon source. Anyhow, I'm more inclined to trust RHF than I am your grad student friend. Especially when the reults that people are reporting mirror the results of other carbon dosing threads. Better polyp extension, increased growth, reduction of nitrates, "smellier" skimate, bacterial mats, presumed bacterial blooms, etc. Every last one of those things has been reported in this thread and the same can be said for all the large carbon dosing threads.

Lastly, the vitamin C itself it encouraging growth rather than the chemical reactions that doesn't explain why Pufferpunk was having problems and no longer is with the use of vitamin C. Vitamin C is not something that is abundant in seawater and thousands upon thousands of people have had no problem growing zoanthids without the use of vitamin C additions. Vitamin C is NOT a cure for what ails zoanthids, even if it does help some people. The people that vare having problems with zoanthids are either having terrible luck or there is something wrong with their water chemistry. Vitamin C may be fixing that in a roundabout sort of way, but I find it very hard to swallow that vitamin C is the least bit essential for having healthy growing zoanthids.

Honestly, I hope you guys prove me wrong and we can all start dosing vitamin C and experience growth like never before and never have another zoanthid "melt" and die. But, til some more evidence comes forward, color me skeptical.

 

[montanabay]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12989168#post12989168 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Peter Eichler
Yes, I've read it, and a good portion of it was over my head. However, it does seem to me that you're drawing conclusions that were not intended from this article. Also, these corals were in culture dishes, and they speak in the article about what obstacles this method of coral study presents. And again, it seems difficult to make them jump from their methods of study to the home aquarium.

Peter,

The experiment had to be preformed this way because they are studying a cellular process, by reducing the experiment to tissues in culture dishes they are limiting confusing factors and emphasizing the cellular response, which in this case that the presence of ascorbate does stimulate collagen production in coral tissue. With that said, why would it be such a jump to think that dosing VC to live coral wouldnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t have the same effect? In the last article I reference they dose VC to live coral in contained environments and it is absorbed and used as an antioxidant at the cellular level. If ascorbate is present and functioning in this process, why would it be such a jump to say that it could be acting as a cofactor in collagen production?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12989168#post12989168 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Peter Eichler
Also, just using common sense, coral seems to have a "mind" of their own. There are countless times that I've fragged zoanthid polyps and placed equal frags right next to one another in virtually identical confitions. One frag doubles in a month or two later and one frag has a good number more polyps than another one...

I agree, there are countless causes and scenarios to considerââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦but Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢m not sure what you are getting at here? How does this refute VC acting as an antioxidant or collagen stimulant when dosed in an aquarium?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12989168#post12989168 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Peter Eichler
Randy, a chemist, conmfirmed in the time that you were away that ascorbic acid could be used as a carbon source. Eric Borneman also believed it was quite possible.

Peter, I canââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t let you use this as an argument, I mean if coral tissue in a culture dish and well run experiment is too much of a stretch for you, how can I let you use ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œcouldââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ and ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œpossibleââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ as a foundation to yours? I could be president and it is also possible for me to win the lottery, but it is highly unlikely. I acknowledge that there are some funky bacteria out there that have found ways to live metabolize even heavy metals, but in corals or in our reef? Where is the evidence of this?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12989168#post12989168 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Peter Eichler
Then also consider stearic acid which is a listed ingredient on some if not all the ascorbic acid supplements people are using. "Stearic acid undergoes the typical reactions of unsaturated carboxylic acids, notably reduction to stearyl alcohol, and esterification with a range of alcohols." Whether or not that reduction will take place in an aquarium I don't know, but it seems to further support ascorbic acid being used as a carbon source. [/B]

This could be true, but the stuff I dose not list it, does Iherb? I thought everyone was trying to use 99% pure ascorbate.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12989168#post12989168 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Peter Eichler
Anyhow, I'm more inclined to trust RHF than I am your grad student friend. Especially when the reults that people are reporting mirror the results of other carbon dosing threads. Better polyp extension, increased growth, reduction of nitrates, "smellier" skimate, bacterial mats, presumed bacterial blooms, etc. Every last one of those things has been reported in this thread and the same can be said for all the large carbon dosing threads. [/B]

My friend explained her answer on why it was probably not the case, RHF said it was *possible* and gave the chemical functions of VC, but he does not describe how it could provide a carbon source. Better polyp extension, growth etc are all signs of healthy coral, not just the carbon, which is making the corals healthier. If ascorbate reduces oxidative stress in coral tissue, could it not mean a healthier coral that can put more energy into growth? Wouldnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t stimulated collagen production also have this affect?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12989168#post12989168 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Peter Eichler

Lastly, the vitamin C itself it encouraging growth rather than the chemical reactions that doesn't explain why Pufferpunk was having problems and no longer is with the use of vitamin C. Vitamin C is not something that is abundant in seawater and thousands upon thousands of people have had no problem growing zoanthids without the use of vitamin C additions. Vitamin C is NOT a cure for what ails zoanthids, even if it does help some people. The people that vare having problems with zoanthids are either having terrible luck or there is something wrong with their water chemistry. Vitamin C may be fixing that in a roundabout sort of way, but I find it very hard to swallow that vitamin C is the least bit essential for having healthy growing zoanthids. [/B]

This is all true, but again, Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢m not sure how this refutes ascorbate acting as a antioxidant or collagen stimulant when dosed and how it defends it as a carbon source.

I donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t think anyone has claimed that VC it is the cure all for zoanthids, nor would I and I hope none of my statements give this impression, again, I close my post with this is a theory.

 

[montanabay]

double!

 

[Pufferpunk]

Vitamin C may be fixing that in a roundabout sort of way, but I find it very hard to swallow that vitamin C is the least bit essential for having healthy growing zoanthids.

No one ever has said in this entire thread that VC is essential for all zoanthids. It certainly seems essential in mine though! Folks like yourself & EB may have zoas growing like weeds & not feel the need to add VC to their tanks but many folks with healthy tanks are seeing vast improvements in their corals & of course then there's my tank... which can't seem to survive without it.

 

[JAMDivers]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12989168#post12989168 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Peter Eichler
Yes, I've read it, and a good portion of it was over my head.

You know Peter, you may not be the only one participating on the thread who may feel that way with all these "not so easy to read" scientific papers. In fact, many here have also suggested a trial experiment with the use of VC to see what the affects are.

Here is a more "toned-down" approach by a mere student who is submitting his 2008 science fair research project for scientific publication on the effects of ascorbic acid on fragmented and bleached corals, as well as recognizing zooxanthellal concentrations in bleached corals under VC administration.

It may not be an official scientist conducting the work, or even a college grad student, but the work is worth a read and easy to take in what the positive effects are of VC administration.

Interestingly enough, this student also references the very same scientific paper posted here on this thread as the basis of his work. And although this was not a very long experiment, he also mentions that less VC (in terms of quantity dosed) shows better effects in terms of growth and attachment rates.

Definitely take a look:

[URL)http://calebkruse.com/Paper.dot[/URL]

and

http://calebkruse.com/Board 08.html

 

[montanabay]

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1338359&highlight=vitamin+c

is this the thread that refers to RHF and his take on ascrobate as a carbon source?

In his explanation of the metabolism of ascrobate he describes how it functions as an antioxidant and how when the metabolic process fails how humans get scurvy (i.e. collagen deficiency).

I think he miss understood the what was being referred to as a "carbon source", which typical reads, energy source, for could it be utilized by coral.

Maybe I found the wrong link...

Cheers,

Josh

 

[montanabay]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12990941#post12990941 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JAMDivers


http://calebkruse.com/Board 08.html

Great find!

This kid has a promising future in academia! I sure wish my research was more a lined more with reefing!

Cheers,

Josh

 

[Skeptic_07]

I think the vitamin C advocates here mostly miss the point of the oppositions points.

Advocates argue that the L-ascorbate is absorbed by the corals tissue, into its cells, and used there to benefit the coral.

The opposition is saying that the vitamin C, ascobic acid, will not even make it that far. The opposing argument is that the substance, vitamin C, breaks down and will be changed to something other than L-ascorbate when it dissolves. The positive effects seen from vitamin C are being attributed to vitamin C acting as a carbon source, as it is an organic compound and is considered a 'sugar acid' and is made up of the same elements as sugar, alcohol, vinegar, etc..

I may or may not have the arguments completely correct and everyone has thier own opinions but none of that matters in this post.

There is a solution to this problem, an answer to the question: How long is ascorbate present in solution after it enters the watercolumn of an aquarium?

There is a way to test for the presence of vitamin C. The substance is a dye called 2,6-dichlorophenol-indophenol or DCPIP for short. The blue dye is run into the ascorbic acid solution until a faint pink colour persists for 15 seconds.

I'm surprised that nobody has suggested this yet.

Instead of speculation, assumation, theories, opinions and other miscellaneous forms of BS that people came up with, we can have some honest, rock solid, factual evidence supporting one side or the other.

I think both parties would agree that this would benefit all.

 

[Peter Eichler]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12991447#post12991447 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by montanabay
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1338359&highlight=vitamin+c

is this the thread that refers to RHF and his take on ascrobate as a carbon source?

In his explanation of the metabolism of ascrobate he describes how it functions as an antioxidant and how when the metabolic process fails how humans get scurvy (i.e. collagen deficiency).

I think he miss understood the what was being referred to as a "carbon source", which typical reads, energy source, for could it be utilized by coral.

Maybe I found the wrong link...

Cheers,

Josh

I don't think he misunderstood in the least considering he opened with this statement...

"Yes, it can be used as a carbon source to drive bacteria, and that may be part or all of the effect that some folks see."

 

[montanabay]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12991676#post12991676 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Skeptic_07
I think the vitamin C advocates here mostly miss the point of the oppositions points.

Advocates argue that the L-ascorbate is absorbed by the corals tissue, into its cells, and used there to benefit the coral.

The opposition is saying that the vitamin C, ascobic acid, will not even make it that far. The opposing argument is that the substance, vitamin C, breaks down and will be changed to something other than L-ascorbate when it dissolves. The positive effects seen from vitamin C are being attributed to vitamin C acting as a carbon source, as it is an organic compound and is considered a 'sugar acid' and is made up of the same elements as sugar, alcohol, vinegar, etc..

I may or may not have the arguments completely correct and everyone has thier own opinions but none of that matters in this post.

There is a solution to this problem, an answer to the question: How long is ascorbate present in solution after it enters the watercolumn of an aquarium?

There is a way to test for the presence of vitamin C. The substance is a dye called 2,6-dichlorophenol-indophenol or DCPIP for short. The blue dye is run into the ascorbic acid solution until a faint pink colour persists for 15 seconds.

I'm surprised that nobody has suggested this yet.

Instead of speculation, assumation, theories, opinions and other miscellaneous forms of BS that people came up with, we can have some honest, rock solid, factual evidence supporting one side or the other.

I think both parties would agree that this would benefit all.

Skeptic, your back!

I did look into this and considered trying to run the experiment. Unfortunately this assay only informs you of the presence of ascorbate, but you would need some type of spectroscopy to acturately quantify the concentration of VC right? I don't know much about this subject.

In the Coral Reefs paper posted recently they dose ascorbate directly into a darken "dose" chamber because of the issue of it breaking down when exposed to light. So this experiment shows that dosed ascorbate into sea water in no light situations persists long enough to be asborbed by live, whole coral and that dosed ascorbate does act as an antioxidant at the cellular level.

So dosed ascorbate can persit long enough to be absorbed, but you are right, is the dosing method (ascorbate type, concentration, timing) that we are using getting to the corals?

They also use a catalyst with ascorbate, do you have any ideas why they might use this? Would it help speed up the enzymatic reactions at the cell level to make use of ascorbate before it degrades?

I'm looking into the catalyst, might order some up from Fisher and try it with my dosing at night.

Cheers,

Josh

 

[montanabay]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12991890#post12991890 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Peter Eichler
I don't think he misunderstood in the least considering he opened with this statement...

"Yes, it can be used as a carbon source to drive bacteria, and that may be part or all of the effect that some folks see."

Sunlight, temperature, and even Ph can "drive" bacteria, but this does not mean they are carbon sources.

He then follows with a description on how ascrobate is used metabolically (by cells, be it human, plant, coral, bateria) as an antioxidant, which is "driving" essential functions of the cell. He does not discuss or describe a chemical function in which ascorbate is turned into a carbon energy source.

 

[Skeptic_07]

The truth is that I had never left, kept reading, just stopped posting.

You do not need a spectroscope to determine the concentration of vitamin C in a solution.

"Ascorbic acid reacts with DCPIP, changing the colour from blue to colourless. They react in a 1:1 fashion, so if a known quantity of DCPIP solution reacts (turns colorless), the quantity of DCPIP used gives a direct measure of the quantity of ascorbic acid present."

Testing immediately after dosing and then repeated testing there after should be able to tell how much is being used up and how fast it is being used or depleted.

I'm searching for a source for DCPIP on the internet but i'm coming up short.

 

[montanabay]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12992271#post12992271 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Skeptic_07
The truth is that I had never left, kept reading, just stopped posting.

You do not need a spectroscope to determine the concentration of vitamin C in a solution.

"Ascorbic acid reacts with DCPIP, changing the colour from blue to colourless. They react in a 1:1 fashion, so if a known quantity of DCPIP solution reacts (turns colorless), the quantity of DCPIP used gives a direct measure of the quantity of ascorbic acid present."

Testing immediately after dosing and then repeated testing there after should be able to tell how much is being used up and how fast it is being used or depleted.

I'm searching for a source for DCPIP on the internet but i'm coming up short.

So something like a drip titration is pretty easy, but how do you measure "blueness", on a ocular scale?

Cheers,

Josh

also, I looked for DCPIP in Fisher, didn't have luck finding it. Hopefully its not a $$$$ reagent...

 

[killingseed]

Skeptic_07, i am with you i have followed this thread from the start and have never stoped. i do does VC just may not in the dosages listed. nor have i posted much. some of the reports may be over my head but i do see some logic behide some of the stuff posted and would like to see it taken to the next level.

real tests! real results form the test!

thanks

 

[montanabay]

so I sent this link (http://www-saps.plantsci.cam.ac.uk/osmoweb/vitc.htm) describing the assay to my chemist friend, she said it would be easy run, just need a burrett and pipette.

looks like you can get dichlorophenolindophenol for about $20 for 1g or $44 for 10g.