Treating with Vitamin C
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Primetime33
SCMAS Logistics and IT
Perfect Jeff.. just the answer I was looking for
Before and after pics to be posted in a few weeks/month.
Thank you,
Brock
OCEAN SIZE
BACK REEFIN'
Documents and pictures are very appreciated in this thread. :thumbsup:
Thanks for the updates.
Thanks for the updates.
blueblue48
New member
Had anyone ever figured out what about the Vit C kills off that slimy stuff?? I was brain storming today and all i could think of was that the ORP level drop made that brown slimey stuff go away and since that happened in the morning and evening it was keeping it away? lemme know if theres anyone with a real answer not just something that doesnt make sense that the thought up (ughhghmmm not me lol)
Jeff
Premium Member
I dont think anybody has a "real answer" for you other then conjecture and theory regarding how vitamin c works. If you have time to read this entire thread you will see a lot of success stories and a bunch of ideas, some educated, some not. It does work well but how? We dont really have scientific fact yet as far as I know.
Pufferpunk
New member
I'm going with the scientist's explaination that VC helps with collagen production. Makes sense to me.
blueblue48
New member
Alright thats all cool. Maybe we wont ever figure out, i mean what scientist is going to spend some time on us reefers 
lol
lolHey guys, it's been a bit since I've posted in this thread because I've been dosing for a month now (well almost a month....I went on vacation for 10 days...so it was not dosed during that time). I will submit some pictures soon. So far, I've had a positive experience.
However, I wanted to remember to get this in while you guys were on the subject:
Puffy said: "I'm going with the scientist's explaination that VC helps with collagen production. Makes sense to me."
In my own reef maintenance I use primarily Seachem supplements and while reordering some products for my tank, I glanced at a product they have called Vitality. I'm guessing it's like Reef Plus but for fish. But, I noticed something in their description I thought you guys might find interesting on the topic of VC and collagen:
"Ascorbic acid is a cofactor in the hydroxylation of proline and lysine to components of procollagen, the precursor of collagen, necessary for the formation of connective tissues, scar tissue in wound repair, and bone matrix.*" (Source: *Nutritional Requirements of Fish, the National Research Council of the National Academy of Sciences, National Academy Press, Washington, DC, 1993, p. 21, 31.)
Hope this helps, plus results and pictures soon.
However, I wanted to remember to get this in while you guys were on the subject:
Puffy said: "I'm going with the scientist's explaination that VC helps with collagen production. Makes sense to me."
In my own reef maintenance I use primarily Seachem supplements and while reordering some products for my tank, I glanced at a product they have called Vitality. I'm guessing it's like Reef Plus but for fish. But, I noticed something in their description I thought you guys might find interesting on the topic of VC and collagen:
"Ascorbic acid is a cofactor in the hydroxylation of proline and lysine to components of procollagen, the precursor of collagen, necessary for the formation of connective tissues, scar tissue in wound repair, and bone matrix.*" (Source: *Nutritional Requirements of Fish, the National Research Council of the National Academy of Sciences, National Academy Press, Washington, DC, 1993, p. 21, 31.)
Hope this helps, plus results and pictures soon.
OCEAN SIZE
BACK REEFIN'
Lysine is a crucial amino acid. Good find.
Primetime33
SCMAS Logistics and IT
I ordered from Iherb yesterday and received my VIT-C today. Pretty good service!!
I will snap some pics before I start dosing.
I will snap some pics before I start dosing.
Pufferpunk
New member
I read VC helps keep away wrinkles in your skin. I never miss my 2 doses!
Ok guys I'll throw another thought or two out there:
I remember folks were asking: "Well why were Puffy's zoas melting in the first place...which might prove to be more beneficial to know, than to just dose with VC and not know why it works."
Then I remembered reading along the way in this very long thread that someone else had mentioned scurvy. And with this new bit of info (in my last post) in hand, maybe the condition (of melting zoas for example) IS a type of coral scurvy and the VC treatment does help in collagen/cellular repair/maintenance.
So I looked it up further. Here's what was mentioned on the net:
"Scurvy is a strange disease caused by inadequate amounts of vitamin C (ascorbic acid) in the body. Vitamin C is a reducing agent that plays a large role in the hydroxylation of the proline and lysine amino acids in the collagen protein.
When there isn't enough vitamin C in the body, the proline and lysine used to form collagen will experience underhydroxylation, which results in the resulting protein structure, collagen, having a lower than usual melting point.
Why is this a big deal? Because collagen is a bonding material that helps hold the body's cells together. When the collagen isn't strong, the body isn't strong. It could be thought of as a cement holding two tires together, representing cells. If the cement is very weak, it will be easy to crack the cement and separate the tires, whereas a strong cement will be much more difficult to break. Symptoms include hemorrhaging of the cells in the body*." (*Source credit: Free information society)
I believe it was also mentioned previously that the internal structure of zoas are somewhat 'jelly-like.' (It would be good to know for sure) However, would it be reasonable to consider (if that is the case on the internal structure) that VC might be a limiting factor in the aquarium environment in a relatively new & developing ecosystem, and when the VC is limited, the cellular walls of the coral break down and hemorrhages, leaving the appearance of a jelly-like state (i.e melting zoas)?
If treated with VC quick enough in some cases, this provides the coral with the ability to form a stronger bond (procollagen) in it's tissues, and only then it may recover from it's ailment (the melting).
You know, now it makes me wonder if that's why the new coral dip "ReVive" has lemon juice in it....for a natural VC component...used for corals in the same manner as a citrus treatment used for sailors in the prevention of scurvy = Vitamin C deficiency. Maybe it jump starts the corals' immune system????
Any thoughts. I'm certainly not an expert? Maybe a chemist in the group could help explain it further? MontanaBay, you there??? What do you think Puffy/Jeff/Ocean?
Thanks guys
I remember folks were asking: "Well why were Puffy's zoas melting in the first place...which might prove to be more beneficial to know, than to just dose with VC and not know why it works."
Then I remembered reading along the way in this very long thread that someone else had mentioned scurvy. And with this new bit of info (in my last post) in hand, maybe the condition (of melting zoas for example) IS a type of coral scurvy and the VC treatment does help in collagen/cellular repair/maintenance.
So I looked it up further. Here's what was mentioned on the net:
"Scurvy is a strange disease caused by inadequate amounts of vitamin C (ascorbic acid) in the body. Vitamin C is a reducing agent that plays a large role in the hydroxylation of the proline and lysine amino acids in the collagen protein.
When there isn't enough vitamin C in the body, the proline and lysine used to form collagen will experience underhydroxylation, which results in the resulting protein structure, collagen, having a lower than usual melting point.
Why is this a big deal? Because collagen is a bonding material that helps hold the body's cells together. When the collagen isn't strong, the body isn't strong. It could be thought of as a cement holding two tires together, representing cells. If the cement is very weak, it will be easy to crack the cement and separate the tires, whereas a strong cement will be much more difficult to break. Symptoms include hemorrhaging of the cells in the body*." (*Source credit: Free information society)
I believe it was also mentioned previously that the internal structure of zoas are somewhat 'jelly-like.' (It would be good to know for sure) However, would it be reasonable to consider (if that is the case on the internal structure) that VC might be a limiting factor in the aquarium environment in a relatively new & developing ecosystem, and when the VC is limited, the cellular walls of the coral break down and hemorrhages, leaving the appearance of a jelly-like state (i.e melting zoas)?
If treated with VC quick enough in some cases, this provides the coral with the ability to form a stronger bond (procollagen) in it's tissues, and only then it may recover from it's ailment (the melting).
You know, now it makes me wonder if that's why the new coral dip "ReVive" has lemon juice in it....for a natural VC component...used for corals in the same manner as a citrus treatment used for sailors in the prevention of scurvy = Vitamin C deficiency. Maybe it jump starts the corals' immune system????
Any thoughts. I'm certainly not an expert? Maybe a chemist in the group could help explain it further? MontanaBay, you there??? What do you think Puffy/Jeff/Ocean?
Thanks guys
Peter Eichler
New member
I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, it was a grad student that made a passing comment about that to someone in this thread. Lets not get ahead of ourselves here.
Also, it's pretty tough to draw a comparison between what vitamin C does to humans to what it does to zoanthids... The immune systems are nothing alike. In fact, NOTHING is alike.
LoudProudNPunk
New member
hey peter, i just wanted to put in my 2 cents and say that i understand why you want proof. Why wouldnt we? it would be a great discovery for the hobby as a whole. If no one ever questioned why things work we wouldnt know much about anything as a society.
If someone could fund a true experiment that would be amazing, but im not counting on that ever happening. Right now i am dosing VC, although i didnt have problems before but i figured why not. It seems alot of people may be having placebo pill effects with VC because of zoanthids unpredictable nature of growth spurts and plateau periods.
even tho i dose VC i dont rely on it, and tend to stick to more tested methods for my peace of mind.
and this isnt supposed to be at all negative towards people who dose, and pufferpunk. I think its great that someone brought it up if they feel like it can help others.
If someone could fund a true experiment that would be amazing, but im not counting on that ever happening. Right now i am dosing VC, although i didnt have problems before but i figured why not. It seems alot of people may be having placebo pill effects with VC because of zoanthids unpredictable nature of growth spurts and plateau periods.
even tho i dose VC i dont rely on it, and tend to stick to more tested methods for my peace of mind.
and this isnt supposed to be at all negative towards people who dose, and pufferpunk. I think its great that someone brought it up if they feel like it can help others.
Pufferpunk
New member
Even if JAMDivers' info is correct for zoas in addition to humans, it doesn't explain why my zoas (& countless others), have a lack of collagen in them. This melting problem has been happening since the beginning of my zoakeeping & up to now, with newer tanks, & long-established tanks.
Guys, come on, this IS a long thread, and yes it was "mentioned" before and credit was suggested (even by Puffy who said 'scientist' rather than 'grad student,' -who, really are just 'scientists in training' right
?Anyway, I used the term 'immune system' lightly for lack of a better 'basal metazoan' reference term to describe a coral's ability to weather ailments. Sorry, LOL
And as far as corals and humans being 'nothing alike,' aren't we all (on a basic level anyway) just carbon and water (H2O) for the most part?
But in all fairness, to prove that Peter's statement is somewhat correct, did you guys know that most animals synthesize their own ascorbic acid with at least a couple of notable exceptions...humans and primates? Which is why we have to get VC through supplementation in our diets or by taking vitamins. So in that aspect he is correct, "nothing alike." (Just kidding Pete!
)Puffy, one could speculate many reasons why the zoas "melted" in new systems vs. the same in more established ones. But if corals DO manufacture their own ascorbic acid and that was indeed a limiting factor in our captive environments, couldn't that be a suggestion for the melting?
Even at our best attempt, our aquariums will never be a perfect match to all the contributing factors that makeup a balanced ocean environment and rarely are we keeping them in (as) a similar state.
So for whatever reason: in the aquarium environment, non-supplementation via additive (like this experiment); no VC in the food source (which is probably unlikely as I believe alot of reputable food companies do add higher doses of VC to their formulations even for fish-only foods that corals snack on when they capture it in captivity); or just an inhibition in the production of ascorbic acid in times of stress maybe due to physical factors... any or all could be a contributing factor or it could be something completely different that none here have been able to put their finger on yet.
BUT with that said,
that's why we are all trying to figure this out....because LoudProud said it best ""If no one ever questioned why things work we wouldnt know much about anything as a society."
Which is what I think everyone is trying to do here...contributing to an idea. At the very least both positive & negative comments suggested here is making everyone think.
PS-Now here's a twist on things: an interesting paper that was published in 2007. Within the paper it compares Xenia elongata to Monitpora digitata in the presence (or not) of ascorbic acid. Seems some corals may or may not use ascorbic acid the same way (soft vs stony). Go to the 2nd page, under ECM (extracellular matrix) production, 3rd paragraph that talks about collagen and VC. It would indeed be interesting to put zoanthids to a similiar test.
www.pnas.org/content/105/1/54.full.pdf+html
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