Treating with Vitamin C

[JAMDivers]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12991676#post12991676 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Skeptic_07
There is a solution to this problem, an answer to the question: How long is ascorbate present in solution after it enters the watercolumn of an aquarium?

You guys are so smart! Testing would be the way to go to know the answer to your question for sure.

In fact, that's what Poly-Bio-Marine suggested to us when I emailed them some time ago. But their take was that L-ascorbic acid, sodium salts (sodium ascorbate) would not remain in solution more than 15 mins to an hour. (I also came across a source-although I can't find it at the moment, darn it- that suggested only 30 mins for VC in aquarium water.)

Anyway, Poly-Bio suggested that we have an independent lab run this type of testing for us, but said it might cost a pretty penny to do so.

MBay, it would be great if your friend had the resources to run a test like that for the thread.

Some other interesting things:

Much work has been done in the industry to manufacture different forms of vitamins to improve their stability during processing and storage. A group of tests conducted in Britain indicated that ascorbic acid was the least stable, followed by its sodium salt form, and then the glyceride-coated ascorbic acid. The most stable was the ascorbic acid-2-sulfate, which is the form preferred in aquatic feeds and other extruded products.

The glyceride-coated form should aid in a slower process of the break down of the VC once suspended in the aquarium water. Which I imagine if it were placed in a fish or coral food would be consumed somewhat quickly, then broken down internally to be better utilized by the animal.

It would be interesting to try the same experiment with the use of this form of VC, or the ascorbic acid-2-sulfate form but I don’t know where you would obtain it or if you would test for it's presence the same way.

 

[montanabay]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12992750#post12992750 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JAMDivers
You guys are so smart! Testing would be the way to go to know the answer to your question for sure.

In fact, that's what Poly-Bio-Marine suggested to us when I emailed them some time ago. But their take was that L-ascorbic acid, sodium salts (sodium ascorbate) would not remain in solution more than 15 mins to an hour. (I also came across a source-although I can't find it at the moment, darn it- that suggested only 30 mins for VC in aquarium water.)

I re-read the Lesser paper I posted. They actually remove the corals to be dipped in the ascorbate dosed sea water because the ascrobate interferes with on of the instruments measuring photosynthetic activity.

They only dip the coral in ascorbate sea water for 15mins, with positive results. This means that even if it only persists for 15-30mins, it is still enough time to be absorbed by the coral.

The real issue is not the reduction from sea water, but from exposure to light, as long as it is dark ascrobate presists long enough to be asborbed by coral, as proven in that experiment.

 

[Skeptic_07]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12992312#post12992312 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by montanabay
So something like a drip titration is pretty easy, but how do you measure "blueness", on a ocular scale?

Cheers,

Josh

also, I looked for DCPIP in Fisher, didn't have luck finding it. Hopefully its not a $$$$ reagent...

hmmn.. i dunno. We could look at it.... and compare it to a control that we setup by diluting the reagent in water (or any colorless liquid as long as it doesn't react with the DCPIP). Add x amount to a control equal to the amount of water to be tested (probably 1ml) X being the highest amount of ascorbate to be determined. (since it reacts in a 1:1 ratio) You can add X-1 to a seprate control, X-2 to a thrid control, X-3, X-4 etc... until X-Y=0. somehow we would have to record the colors of these mixtures to make a comparison chart. This would be difficult but not impossible.

drip titration wouldn't work (i dont think) because as each drop goes into the test vial, it would turn it blue then revert back to clear as the ascorbate reacts with it. I think by the time you see constant blue in the test vial you'd be way past the endpoint.

Maybe it would be possible to make up a mixture of DCPIP and drip the solution to be tested into that until a clear enpoint was reached. I'm not completely sure if this would work properly.

When i suggested this, I was thinking more along the lines of, dose the Vitamin C to the aquarium and immedialy test for its presence. It should come up positive. Then test 10 minutes later and see if there is any VC present. Wait another 10 minutes, retest, and continue like this until vitamin C is no longer detected.

After it is established that this compund actually is present, and remains present after dissolution in some quantity, then we should try to determine what the concentration of it is.

 

[JAMDivers]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12992881#post12992881 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by montanabay
I re-read the Lesser paper I posted.

Thanks for sending me the paper, I will read it when I have a moment later tonight.

They only dip the coral in ascorbate sea water for 15mins, with positive results. This means that even if it only persists for 15-30mins, it is still enough time to be absorbed by the coral.[/QUOTE]

Boy, they must be some 'tough' corals if they are being moved often from one container to another without stressing out from just being disturbed.

The real issue is not the reduction from sea water, but from exposure to light, as long as it is dark ascrobate presists long enough to be asborbed by coral, as proven in that experiment. [/QUOTE]

And not to hijack a thread, but of those of us who are currently dosing VC, how many people actually feed their corals after the lights are out (nighttime on the reef)?

The reason I ask, is because I imagine different species feed at different times (day/night) or maybe they are just opportunistic and feed whenever food is available to them. In captivity, I imagine they can conditioned to feed whenever. But I do remember reading somewhere that a lot of corals in fact, do eat at night when there is little to no light present.

MBay, if you could elicit a feeding response just prior to dosing the VC (to increase the opportunity for absorption via food), wouldn't that help too? Just a thought.

And if you do plan to dose at night, and I certainly understand why you suggested it, how would you plan to keep the pH from dropping further after photosynthesis has stopped for the day? Additional buffer? Or try to dose just after the lights go out while the pH is still relatively high?

Thanks again for the paper, I go through it tonight.

 

[Skeptic_07]

Thanks to JAMDivers and killingseed for the kind words. I'm still searching for a source for the reagent. If anyone can find it, please post it here. Thanks.

 

[montanabay]

SKeptic_07

I finally found it in Fisher:

http://www.fishersci.com/wps/portal...ut=true&brCategoryId=null&hlpi=y&fromSearch=Y

 

[Peter Eichler]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12989168#post12989168 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Peter Eichler
Yes, I've read it, and a good portion of it was over my head. However, it does seem to me that you're drawing conclusions that were not intended from this article. Also, these corals were in culture dishes, and they speak in the article about what obstacles this method of coral study presents. And again, it seems difficult to make them jump from their methods of study to the home aquarium. Also, just using common sense, coral seems to have a "mind" of their own. There are countless times that I've fragged zoanthid polyps and placed equal frags right next to one another in virtually identical confitions. One frag doubles in a month or two later and one frag has a good number more polyps than another one...

Randy, a chemist, conmfirmed in the time that you were away that ascorbic acid could be used as a carbon source. Eric Borneman also believed it was quite possible. Then also consider stearic acid which is a listed ingredient on some if not all the ascorbic acid supplements people are using. "Stearic acid undergoes the typical reactions of unsaturated carboxylic acids, notably reduction to stearyl alcohol, and esterification with a range of alcohols." Whether or not that reduction will take place in an aquarium I don't know, but it seems to further support ascorbic acid being used as a carbon source. Anyhow, I'm more inclined to trust RHF than I am your grad student friend. Especially when the reults that people are reporting mirror the results of other carbon dosing threads. Better polyp extension, increased growth, reduction of nitrates, "smellier" skimate, bacterial mats, presumed bacterial blooms, etc. Every last one of those things has been reported in this thread and the same can be said for all the large carbon dosing threads.

Lastly, the vitamin C itself it encouraging growth rather than the chemical reactions that doesn't explain why Pufferpunk was having problems and no longer is with the use of vitamin C. Vitamin C is not something that is abundant in seawater and thousands upon thousands of people have had no problem growing zoanthids without the use of vitamin C additions. Vitamin C is NOT a cure for what ails zoanthids, even if it does help some people. The people that vare having problems with zoanthids are either having terrible luck or there is something wrong with their water chemistry. Vitamin C may be fixing that in a roundabout sort of way, but I find it very hard to swallow that vitamin C is the least bit essential for having healthy growing zoanthids.

Honestly, I hope you guys prove me wrong and we can all start dosing vitamin C and experience growth like never before and never have another zoanthid "melt" and die. But, til some more evidence comes forward, color me skeptical.

Since I can't edit... I just wanted to state that Eric Borneman doesn't feel the ascorbic acid is acting as a carbon source and it was someone else making that speculation on his forum. Sorry for the mistake.

However, Randy does believe it could be fueling bacteria and acting as a carbon source. In short, we're as confused as ever as to what vitamin C might actually be doing

 

[montanabay]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12996633#post12996633 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Peter Eichler
Since I can't edit... I just wanted to state that Eric Borneman doesn't feel the ascorbic acid is acting as a carbon source and it was someone else making that speculation on his forum. Sorry for the mistake.

However, Randy does believe it could be fueling bacteria and acting as a carbon source. In short, we're as confused as ever as to what vitamin C might actually be doing

keep in mind that the only example Randy provided is bacteria in the human gut being shown to metabolize ascorbate as a carbon source and that he did not know of any more complex organisms that could (algae, corals).

So I would feel comfortable throwing out the theory that it is acting as a direct carbon source to corals, but keep the possibility that it spurs bacteria growth, which feed the coral, although I still think it is more likely to be acting as an antioxidant or cofactor in collagen production, as shown in the literature

to be continued!

Cheers,

Josh

PS: I was also thinking that if corals begin rebuilding and growing they will be releasing increased metabolic waste, like any organism, maybe this explains the skimmate buildup, algae blooms that have been reported with dosing.

 

[Peter Eichler]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12996688#post12996688 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by montanabay
keep in mind that the only example Randy provided is bacteria in the human gut being shown to metabolize ascorbate as a carbon source and that he did not know of any more complex organisms that could (algae, corals).

So I would feel comfortable throwing out the theory that it is acting as a direct carbon source to corals, but keep the possibility that it spurs bacteria growth, which feed the coral, although I still think it is more likely to be acting as an antioxidant or cofactor in collagen production, as shown in the literature

to be continued!

Cheers,

Josh

PS: I was also thinking that if corals begin rebuilding and growing they will be releasing increased metabolic waste, like any organism, maybe this explains the skimmate buildup, algae blooms that have been reported with dosing.

No one in this thread or any of the carbon dosing threads is claiming that the "corals" are utilizing vitamin C or any other dosed carbon source. It's all based on driving bacteria growth and lowering nutrients in the water. Corals using the bacteria as a food source is pure speculation, but seems to be a possible side effect.

 

[OCEAN SIZE]

Since corals have been tested to absorb/consume foods only when they aren't recognized as an obvious foreign body, they respond to foods that have been soaked in tank water for 15 min to make them more "palatable" if you will.

If the vitamin c is stabilized, what about adding it to their feed water? Vit C doesn't last long anyway, and if there's enough tank water to ensure they're not getting hit with too much of a ph swing, and they are uptaking foods anyway, would that be a more efficient (yet safe) delivery mechanism?

There's a careful balance to be struck there of course, but it seems they might uptake more VC that way.

 

[Pufferpunk]

I always soak their foods in Selcon overnight.

 

[Skeptic_07]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12993298#post12993298 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by montanabay
SKeptic_07

I finally found it in Fisher:

http://www.fishersci.com/wps/portal...ut=true&brCategoryId=null&hlpi=y&fromSearch=Y

thank you.

 

[montanabay]

in the Lesser paper they dose at 125uM with l-ascorbic acid and 250uM of a catalyst with success, you might calculate your needed quantities for that ball park.

Cheers,

Josh

 

[Pufferpunk]

How much is a uM?

 

[montanabay]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12999319#post12999319 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Pufferpunk
How much is a uM?

I'll give it a try, but the chemi's should double check it

mol. wt of ascorbic acid is 176.124 per g

to get 125uM in 1 liter you need 176.124*0.000125=0.0220155

lets now convert this to a 100gal or 378.541178 liters, so 0.0220155*378.541178=8.333773304g

1g = 1000 mg

so you need 8333.777mg in 100gal to get that concentration

this ends up being around 22PPM on Puffy's chart.

Someone PLEASE double check this, hahah

Cheers,

Josh

 

[pondy]

Today is day 4 of my doseing and well I have seen a few polyps improve. I thought I lost a whole colony of peach zoos but not I have around 4 polyps opening up and the colony is looking better. My emerald greens are looking way better as well. I only hope that Ican get even more responses from the other sick zoos.

Before pics.
peach zoos

emerald greens

 

[pondy]

Ill get the afters posted tonight

 

[JAMDivers]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12998830#post12998830 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by OCEAN SIZE
Since corals have been tested to absorb/consume foods only when they aren't recognized as an obvious foreign body, they respond to foods that have been soaked in tank water for 15 min to make them more "palatable" if you will.

If the vitamin c is stabilized, what about adding it to their feed water? Vit C doesn't last long anyway, and if there's enough tank water to ensure they're not getting hit with too much of a ph swing, and they are uptaking foods anyway, would that be a more efficient (yet safe) delivery mechanism?

There's a careful balance to be struck there of course, but it seems they might uptake more VC that way.

After making my last post, Ocean, I have been contemplating the very same thing, but with the addition of adding VC & coral food with tank water just after the lights go out while the pH is still high.

Currently I take VC put it in RO/DI topoff water (1/2 tsp to approx 4 cups RO) that is gravity fed (I'm guessing 1-3 drops/sec) via a black airline tube from the top of the tank (remember I'm sumpless) and this occurs twice a day once in the morning, and once in the evening. The container holding the water and VC is shielded from the tank lights.

Every other day, when I dose phytoplankton to the tank, I have pondered the thought of dosing VC along with it by siphoning out about the same amount (4 cups) of tank water, mix with Phyto-feast, and the VC and just allowing it to drip in as usual.

Using the tank water instead of the RO may help to dilute the 7.1 pH shift of the sodium ascorbate a little more. I think that may have been the problem with the lost of my A. suharsonoi frag. I think the drip line may have been too close to the area above the frag that day when I lost it. And it was the day I up-ed the dose to 20ppm.

Anyway, also like Puffy, I make up the coral food (Reef Roids, cyclopeez and mysid shrimp) the night before by allowing it to thaw and soak in Selcon (which btw contains 200 mg of VC) overnight in the refrigerator.

Anyone see an issue with dosing the VC in saltwater versus RO/DI?

 

[OCEAN SIZE]

:thumbsup: Thanks for the info JamDivers - Glad to know I'm not too far off base. I haven't looked at Selcon in a while but figured there would be C in there.

Great updates - I appreciate the pics and info.

 

[toaster77]

this might help get at the mode of action of Vitamin C:

i'm curious as to WHEN everyone is dosing their vitamin C, i.e. during the midst of lights on, after lights go out, mixed in top-off, etc.

one could imagine if ascorbate was acting to improve photosynthesis or reduce phototoxicity/oxidative stress, then dosing during lights on might be more effective than dosing when lights off. you could imagine this variable is critical as many believe ascorbate has a short half-life in water, so there could be a world of difference depending on when you dose...

just another variable to think about.