Tropic Marine BIO-ACTIF Salt?
- Thread starter wld1783
- Start date
Fishamatank
New member
I have a LTA. I've only done put about 15 gal in over the last 2 weeks, but no changes to nem so far.
jlinzmaier
Premium Member
I'm intrigued with this salt mix but skeptical just the same. Every positive response that anyone has reported in these seven pages of posts is the common response people get when implementing carbon source dosing. The improved water clarity, increased skimmate, improved coral coloration, and increased polyp extension are all very positive results that people see within the first few weeks of implementing the dosing of a carbon source.
So you take a high quality salt mix like tropic marine pro reef (TMPR) and add a carbon source to it (whatever it is that was added) and you now have a good quality salt mix with water params near NSW and an added improvement in nutrient reduction making it look like after a few water changes the tank has had a magical transformation from this silver bullet salt mix. I think the positiive observations are very likely legitimate and directly related to some organic in the mix, however, I would lay a strong bet on the fact that if a person used a quality salt mix with water params near NSW and instituted some carbon source dosing you would see very similar results.
I think it is a very clever idea for a salt mix manufacturer to add a small amount of a carbon source to a salt mix. If a reefer changes to this new salt mix they then get an additional reduction in nutrients, via bacterial proliferation from the additional carbon source, thus reflecting all the positive effects seen when implementing carbon source dosing (increased polyp ext, brighter coloration, improved skimmer function, etc....). That person would most likely reflect upon the change to the salt mix as being the silver bullet and a spectacular product not realizing that the minor addition of a certain carbon source could have induced the same response. Having an unknown organic carbon source in a salt mix may be quite detrimental becuase of the indications clearly pointed out in several previous posts. Bacterial proliferation via carbon source dosing is a very successful means of nutrient reduction and has been for decades, however, the dose is different for every tank and isn't by any means a cookie cutter type of supplementation. Unfortunately, adding a carbon source to a salt mix is providing a "cookie cutter dose". There is no way to change the amount dosed unless you change the amount of water changed. I highly suspect that the amount of carbon source is quite small in this salt mix, however, in a very low nutrient tank a sudden increase in bacterial proliferation can be a bad thing. There is also no information on what various of types of organics can build up over time and what effect that will cause on a reef tank.
I don't know if there is anything more to this salt than a simple addition of a carbon source. I do know a great deal about carbon source dosing and in the seven pages of posts I read through, the positive results that people are seeing sound exactly like when a person begins a carbon dosing regimen. That leads me to the question that everybody is asking "Is the extra money worth it?" Well, if it's nothing more than a high quality salt mix with a carbon source added then I have to say absolutely not. I can buy a quality salt mix for far less and buy a bottle of vodka to induce the same reactions everyone is reporting and do it for far less than the cost of this salt. Do I think Tropic Marine makes a good salt mix? Yes absolutely. I like to use TMPR salt mix when I can afford it and I doubt that this new salt mix will cause any significantly negative effects -short term. It's my understanding that there is little to no research on the long term effects of dosing DOC's, no scientific information as to what complications may occur as DOC's build up in a reef tank, and I think many experts would agree that when comparing nutrient management and nutrient levels in a reef tank vs a live reef in the ocean is like comparing apples to oranges. Even if we can match the exact C levels as are found in the ocean, does that mean that we should strive for that?? Well, with the significant limitation in biological diversity, significant limitation in nutrient uptake and export from various organisms, and an overall lack of biological harmony which is what makes an oceanic reef so successful, I have to say likely not. Matching every aspect of NSW reefs may not be the cats meow because our reef tanks do not function the same way a natural reef does on many many levels.
Hans-Werner
I've got to give you a lot of credit for posting here and providing what feedback you've given. Most manufacturers would hold out and not give out as much of the secret formula as you have. Most would give us the run around and rely on the "I can't give out the secret recipe" response. I don't blame you for not declaring exactly what organic compounds you've added but I applaud your openness thus far. I'm not sold on your product yet and would love to hear your explanation of why bio-actif salt mix is better than using TMPR salt mix and adding a carbon dosing regimen (at the appropriate amount for each tank at the "sweet spot amount") to induce the same response so many are claiming to find after using bio-actif salt mix. There is the one clear complaint that I can declare without even using it. If there is an added source of organic C, how do you know that the amount isn't too much or too little?? Manual dosing of any form of carbon dosing in a reef tank can easily lead to too much or too little (with significantly detrimental effects from the "too much" end of the scale) and I'm curious as to how you have come up with the magic dose. Or, have you merely come up with the addition of an organic carbon dose to create an initial impression of significant improvement of the reef tank becuase of an initial decrease in nutrient load (just like we most often see when beginning a carbon source dosing regimen)???
This sounds like a very logical and realistic explanation of your endeavors. Since there is no proof or indication of what bacterial activity your attempting to activate or exactly what type of organics you're adding, one could conclude that you've spent thousands of dollars researching oranics, researching coral and bacterial metabolic activity stimulation through the use of various enzyme additions and organic compound additions "OR" it could be nothing more than you simply added some ascorbic acid to the mix. I'm not trying to degrade your product by any means, but please try to understand that I'm trying to look at it from an open ended perspective. I may well try the product for myself in the future but even then how I will not know if any results I see are from the addition of a very complex mixture of organics to stimulate "specialized" bacteria or if it's nothing more than a little additional Vit C?? If you could answer that last question with a legitimate response I'd likely order a few buckets tomorrow.
Jeremy
So you take a high quality salt mix like tropic marine pro reef (TMPR) and add a carbon source to it (whatever it is that was added) and you now have a good quality salt mix with water params near NSW and an added improvement in nutrient reduction making it look like after a few water changes the tank has had a magical transformation from this silver bullet salt mix. I think the positiive observations are very likely legitimate and directly related to some organic in the mix, however, I would lay a strong bet on the fact that if a person used a quality salt mix with water params near NSW and instituted some carbon source dosing you would see very similar results.
I think it is a very clever idea for a salt mix manufacturer to add a small amount of a carbon source to a salt mix. If a reefer changes to this new salt mix they then get an additional reduction in nutrients, via bacterial proliferation from the additional carbon source, thus reflecting all the positive effects seen when implementing carbon source dosing (increased polyp ext, brighter coloration, improved skimmer function, etc....). That person would most likely reflect upon the change to the salt mix as being the silver bullet and a spectacular product not realizing that the minor addition of a certain carbon source could have induced the same response. Having an unknown organic carbon source in a salt mix may be quite detrimental becuase of the indications clearly pointed out in several previous posts. Bacterial proliferation via carbon source dosing is a very successful means of nutrient reduction and has been for decades, however, the dose is different for every tank and isn't by any means a cookie cutter type of supplementation. Unfortunately, adding a carbon source to a salt mix is providing a "cookie cutter dose". There is no way to change the amount dosed unless you change the amount of water changed. I highly suspect that the amount of carbon source is quite small in this salt mix, however, in a very low nutrient tank a sudden increase in bacterial proliferation can be a bad thing. There is also no information on what various of types of organics can build up over time and what effect that will cause on a reef tank.
I don't know if there is anything more to this salt than a simple addition of a carbon source. I do know a great deal about carbon source dosing and in the seven pages of posts I read through, the positive results that people are seeing sound exactly like when a person begins a carbon dosing regimen. That leads me to the question that everybody is asking "Is the extra money worth it?" Well, if it's nothing more than a high quality salt mix with a carbon source added then I have to say absolutely not. I can buy a quality salt mix for far less and buy a bottle of vodka to induce the same reactions everyone is reporting and do it for far less than the cost of this salt. Do I think Tropic Marine makes a good salt mix? Yes absolutely. I like to use TMPR salt mix when I can afford it and I doubt that this new salt mix will cause any significantly negative effects -short term. It's my understanding that there is little to no research on the long term effects of dosing DOC's, no scientific information as to what complications may occur as DOC's build up in a reef tank, and I think many experts would agree that when comparing nutrient management and nutrient levels in a reef tank vs a live reef in the ocean is like comparing apples to oranges. Even if we can match the exact C levels as are found in the ocean, does that mean that we should strive for that?? Well, with the significant limitation in biological diversity, significant limitation in nutrient uptake and export from various organisms, and an overall lack of biological harmony which is what makes an oceanic reef so successful, I have to say likely not. Matching every aspect of NSW reefs may not be the cats meow because our reef tanks do not function the same way a natural reef does on many many levels.
Hans-Werner
I've got to give you a lot of credit for posting here and providing what feedback you've given. Most manufacturers would hold out and not give out as much of the secret formula as you have. Most would give us the run around and rely on the "I can't give out the secret recipe" response. I don't blame you for not declaring exactly what organic compounds you've added but I applaud your openness thus far. I'm not sold on your product yet and would love to hear your explanation of why bio-actif salt mix is better than using TMPR salt mix and adding a carbon dosing regimen (at the appropriate amount for each tank at the "sweet spot amount") to induce the same response so many are claiming to find after using bio-actif salt mix. There is the one clear complaint that I can declare without even using it. If there is an added source of organic C, how do you know that the amount isn't too much or too little?? Manual dosing of any form of carbon dosing in a reef tank can easily lead to too much or too little (with significantly detrimental effects from the "too much" end of the scale) and I'm curious as to how you have come up with the magic dose. Or, have you merely come up with the addition of an organic carbon dose to create an initial impression of significant improvement of the reef tank becuase of an initial decrease in nutrient load (just like we most often see when beginning a carbon source dosing regimen)???
This sounds like a very logical and realistic explanation of your endeavors. Since there is no proof or indication of what bacterial activity your attempting to activate or exactly what type of organics you're adding, one could conclude that you've spent thousands of dollars researching oranics, researching coral and bacterial metabolic activity stimulation through the use of various enzyme additions and organic compound additions "OR" it could be nothing more than you simply added some ascorbic acid to the mix. I'm not trying to degrade your product by any means, but please try to understand that I'm trying to look at it from an open ended perspective. I may well try the product for myself in the future but even then how I will not know if any results I see are from the addition of a very complex mixture of organics to stimulate "specialized" bacteria or if it's nothing more than a little additional Vit C?? If you could answer that last question with a legitimate response I'd likely order a few buckets tomorrow.
Jeremy
Last edited:
Hans-Werner
Member
Hi Jeremy,
Your last question at first. I can not tell you exactly how you can tell the difference between dosing of Vitamin C and using our BIO-ACTIF Sea Salt since I am not that experienced in the dosing of organics as you seem to be.
One of the substances that are dosed for a longer period of time in the US is vinegar in combination with calcium hydroxide. I also tried dosing of calcium acetate but did not see clear positive results.
If dosing of organics like vodka produces the same positive effects as BIO-ACTIF sea salt, why did some outstanding aquarists and scientists treat it as ridiculous and old thing when Joerg Kokott tried to (re-)introduce it to the hobby? For me this did sound like it frequently produced adverse effects and indeed adverse effects like bacterial blooms have been reported. To me it seemed not the right thing for our company.
When I began to test the organic substances added to the BIO-ACTIF salt I saw clear positive effects already after a few days. It where the same effects that are described in this threat repeatedly like clearer water, better polyp opening etc..
I have not noticed bacterial blooms or severe adverse effects over the years of using BIO-ACTIF salt or the organics contained yet. If the organics of the BIO-ACTIF salt are dosed in a high dosage it seems more likely that they produce organic detritus than producing bacterial blooms. This organic detritus seems to bind some trace elements and other nutrients but the adverse effects seem minor and temporary and not as severe as in overdosing vodka. These results I got seem to be reproducable and the experiences of other aquarists I have heard of seem very similar to my own ones.
So to make a long story short, I can not predict if you will see a difference when using BIO-ACTIF sea salt but I hope you will. Give it a try and tell us if you see a difference or if it is just the ordinary "organic dosing effect".
Hans-Werner
Your last question at first. I can not tell you exactly how you can tell the difference between dosing of Vitamin C and using our BIO-ACTIF Sea Salt since I am not that experienced in the dosing of organics as you seem to be.
One of the substances that are dosed for a longer period of time in the US is vinegar in combination with calcium hydroxide. I also tried dosing of calcium acetate but did not see clear positive results.
If dosing of organics like vodka produces the same positive effects as BIO-ACTIF sea salt, why did some outstanding aquarists and scientists treat it as ridiculous and old thing when Joerg Kokott tried to (re-)introduce it to the hobby? For me this did sound like it frequently produced adverse effects and indeed adverse effects like bacterial blooms have been reported. To me it seemed not the right thing for our company.
When I began to test the organic substances added to the BIO-ACTIF salt I saw clear positive effects already after a few days. It where the same effects that are described in this threat repeatedly like clearer water, better polyp opening etc..
I have not noticed bacterial blooms or severe adverse effects over the years of using BIO-ACTIF salt or the organics contained yet. If the organics of the BIO-ACTIF salt are dosed in a high dosage it seems more likely that they produce organic detritus than producing bacterial blooms. This organic detritus seems to bind some trace elements and other nutrients but the adverse effects seem minor and temporary and not as severe as in overdosing vodka. These results I got seem to be reproducable and the experiences of other aquarists I have heard of seem very similar to my own ones.
So to make a long story short, I can not predict if you will see a difference when using BIO-ACTIF sea salt but I hope you will. Give it a try and tell us if you see a difference or if it is just the ordinary "organic dosing effect".
Hans-Werner
jlinzmaier
Premium Member
jlinzmaier
Premium Member
One more question Hans. Can you link me to any reviews or comments from any "oustanding or expert aquarists" or scientists reviews on your product? I'm unsure if it is or not, but If it is against RC rules to site them on a thread then a PM would be fine.
Thank you.
Jeremy
Hans-Werner
Member
Jeremy,
I don´t know if I have expressed myself wrong. The comments of the outstanding experts where on the vodka dosing of Joerg Kokott. Maybe you can find some comments when searching for the name Kokott. From personal communication I also know that he tried to publish his vodka dosing in the Reefkeeping online mag and his article was rejected. As far as I know ethanol dosage or dosage of any organics except vinegar with calciumhydroxide was not widespread prior to Joerg´s publication. Here is a thread from this forum where vodka dosing is viewed more from the ridiculous side. The experiences of Joerg with the publication in the online mag must have been similar. I can´t recall exactly whether I am more influenced by the personal communication or whether really experts have published negative things about Joerg´s vodka dosing but I recall Joerg was very dissapointed about the rejection. It is already some years ago.
I can´t tell whether we already have positive comments of US experts on our BIO-ACTIF salt yet.
Hans-Werner
I don´t know if I have expressed myself wrong. The comments of the outstanding experts where on the vodka dosing of Joerg Kokott. Maybe you can find some comments when searching for the name Kokott. From personal communication I also know that he tried to publish his vodka dosing in the Reefkeeping online mag and his article was rejected. As far as I know ethanol dosage or dosage of any organics except vinegar with calciumhydroxide was not widespread prior to Joerg´s publication. Here is a thread from this forum where vodka dosing is viewed more from the ridiculous side. The experiences of Joerg with the publication in the online mag must have been similar. I can´t recall exactly whether I am more influenced by the personal communication or whether really experts have published negative things about Joerg´s vodka dosing but I recall Joerg was very dissapointed about the rejection. It is already some years ago.
I can´t tell whether we already have positive comments of US experts on our BIO-ACTIF salt yet.
Hans-Werner
jlinzmaier
Premium Member
I misunderstood you Hans. My apologies. I thought you were indicating there were reviews and comments by experts about your salt mix. Carbon source dosing has been used in the US for decades and many of our well known reefkeepers here on reefcentral have used it as well as written articles about it. Carbon dosing can be spectacular under the right circumstances and with the right attention, however, it has it's drawbacks as well.
Yet another question. Han's I'd like to hear your perspective and I'd also love to hear from our well known experts here on RC like Cliff, Randy, Tatu, etc....
With organics being in the salt mix, how will the salt mix hold up to being stored for a week or two????
I know there have been comments on the aspect of the oraganics being in the salt mix, however, the replies have been very vague from my perspective.
Hans, you mentioned you've had some salt water mixed for a while with no ill effects, however, I want to further understand the likelihood of the organics changing or decomposing if freshly mixed salt water was left unused for a couple weeks. Since there is no clarification about exaclty what organics are added to this mix, I'm assuming they could possibly be complex molecules that could break down into less beneficial molecules, waste material, or even toxins if exposed to the right circumstances. We're assuming that there is no N or P in the mix, however, I doubt the mix is "entirely" free of any N and P. With the salt mix being exposed to an unsterile environment, the air alone could provide enough bacteria to seed the freshly mixed salt water. Thereafter, with any amount of N, P, and C (organic additions) in the freshly mixed water, it logistically could induce some bacterial growth and change the entire composition of the organics - possibly into toxins and waste products and more likley so as the bacteria die. That would not only entirely negate the benefit of having the oranics in the mix, because they could/would be utilized and/or altered before the salt mix was used for the tank, but it could actually be harmful. It would be easy to see if there was a significant bacterial bloom in the mixing bins, however, it wouldn't be easy to see if there were small changes to the organics due to an inoculation of bacteria from environmental factors which led to a small amount of bacterial growth (just enough growth to alter the composition of the organic additions).
Someone please give me a biology and chemistry perspective on this.
Jeremy
Hans-Werner
Member
Jeremy,
if I follow the link to the 6 year old thread in this forum I do not have the impression that there was really much experience before the publication of Joerg Kokott. Here I have to say it with Joschka Fischer "I am sorry, I am not convinced". Can you provide links?
Of course there where sporadically organics dosings amongst reef aquaristis. Honey may have been one of the more popular substances dosed in Germany. But in my opinion the reports about experiences where anecdotic, no good basis for a reproducible method.
Regarding the storage of saltwater that is the point where I have to bail out. I am to much practitioner to discuss beyond that point. That is where I say, try it.
I prefer to make experimental setups and look for the interpretation of the results after I have seen the results.
Hans-Werner
zygote2k
Nuisance Algae
I have found all of this discussion to be quite interesting. About a month ago, a friend gave me a bucket of this salt to try on my skimmerless system.
I currently use a rubble filter/fuge on a RDP schedule. I also use carbon, GFO, and polycaprolactone pellets- all 3 in mesh bags for passive filtration.
I dose 3 part every now and then and my levels are all within normal range.
I use LED for lighting too.
After using this salt for the past 3 water change, I haven't noticed any difference in any of the corals or water quality.
It seems that good husbandry practices will yield the same results.
I currently use a rubble filter/fuge on a RDP schedule. I also use carbon, GFO, and polycaprolactone pellets- all 3 in mesh bags for passive filtration.
I dose 3 part every now and then and my levels are all within normal range.
I use LED for lighting too.
After using this salt for the past 3 water change, I haven't noticed any difference in any of the corals or water quality.
It seems that good husbandry practices will yield the same results.
badazztealcobra
New member
I'm in the same boat. I've done (2) 20 gallon water changes so far and havent noticed any difference. I'm hoping the next WC will yield some results... Ive been delaying putting my Profilux dosing pump online so I dont skew any results by trying the new salt....
Hans-Werner
Member
If I may comment on the last two positings: In my eye the main goal is not to improve the 10% of best tanks that are at their optimum anyway, in my eyes the main goal is to make successful reefkeeping more reproducible and to improve the 50 to 75% of tanks that are not yet or no more at their optimum. Reefkeeping should be easier and more joyful for the average aquarist. To many aquarists give up the hobby because it is to difficult and for unknown reasons successful periods are followed by periods of bad conditions and degradation.
If it would be possible to eliminate this uncertainty and unsteadyness ...! Isn´t it that way?
Hans-Werner
If it would be possible to eliminate this uncertainty and unsteadyness ...! Isn´t it that way?
Hans-Werner
jlinzmaier
Premium Member
My sincere apologies Hans. A clear error on my part. I was under the impression that the references in which I have learned so much about carbon dosing were written far earlier.
Jeremy
Hans-Werner
Member
Ok, Jeremy, no problem. Looking back at the last 6 or 8 years I also frequently think it must have been a longer time since there was a substantial development in reefkeeping.
Hans-Werner
layer3switchguy
New member
Folks,
Are there any issues with using this salt along with Prodibio? Not sure if the organics in the salt would cause issues with the Prodibio system? Any thoughts? Some of the Zeo folks I've talked to on the Zeo forum seem to feel this salt and Zeovit can cause issues like cloudy water, etc...
Thanks,
L3
Are there any issues with using this salt along with Prodibio? Not sure if the organics in the salt would cause issues with the Prodibio system? Any thoughts? Some of the Zeo folks I've talked to on the Zeo forum seem to feel this salt and Zeovit can cause issues like cloudy water, etc...
Thanks,
L3
Similar threads
