True or False, did this REALLY and TRULY happen ?????

[kichimark]

+1 with wycombs. Although one thing I learrned in my science courses is that many things are possible (duh haha). My problem though is that there is no control group in this experiment. Also he gathered data ( i love data), so is he gonna run a correlation analysis or ANOVA or anything else (since there is so little to none scientific reports on aquaria)? Going back to a control group what if the original polyps he used had some mutation already that caused them to replicate at an already increased rate? (thats why a control is so important...reduces error)

Another thing I see is that he injected various amounts of hgh into the polyps but yet they all reproduced at the same rate overall....eh so we can exclude a correlation analysis then. Did this other substance combine with the hgh to be of use for the polyps? or did it do the results itself ( smells like an ANOVA test). Did he continue injecting the polyps a second or third time? what were the procedures? Also its not too amazing if he does it again. The real thing that will be amazing is if other reefers can replicate it in their tanks with their Z's and P's and see the same results (when a scientist makes a conclusion in a published paper, others try to replicate it....if they dont come to the same conclusion numerous times they tear him apart haha)

So even though i see it as possible I see it as unlikely...but I have been wrong before in my hypothesis haha...SO I ACCEPT THE NULL hypothesis haha. Sorry for asking so many questions.

 

[MUCHO REEF]

Pharmacist spend a significant amount of training understanding the mechanisms by which cells and drugs interact (this covers vast numbers of drugs for multiple different actions). This would include things such as what does penicillin bind to in bacteria to kill it and what do bacteria do to change their cells, so that they have resistance. So ..... his training easily provides him with a knowledge base that extends outside of human and mammalian cells. He could just work in a research facility and have access to different compounds.

I am not talking about FDA approval, as many medications, antibiotics/chemotherapy, etc are used for things everyday that are not approved uses by the FDA. I am also not talking about FDA approved drugs, as whether FDA approved or not you are boiling this down to a simple cell and hormone interaction and called this synthetic human growth hormone, whether FDA approved or not, tested or untested you are trying to make something synthetic to get into a mammalian cell that is a peptide, it needs a receptor in order to effect some change within specific genes of the cell. That receptor for a HUMAN hormone, as well as the analogous genes, will not be there on z and p's. This does not even get to the idea of stability of a hormone (that is a peptide) that you want to give to a human, being put into a saltwater environment. If the pH of humans was 8.1-8.5, you would be checking it right after they had died.

If you alter what you call what is being given, that may change the response, but a speicific type of hormone (Human Growth Hormone), directed at a specific kind of cell (mammal), to regulate a specific cell function (growth), made of something that is a peptide (Growth hormone, not fat soluble, therefore can't diffuse across the cell membrane), this will not work in a zoanthid and paly tested or not. So if you are actually wanting to test and make a drug that effects human, you would have to at least realize the drug needs to be built to fit within the parameters to be synthetic HGH, mainly it will bind a receptor on human cells or at least mammailian cells, ie mouse, rabbit..Now if you just took something (without taking into accout the particular cell you targeted and specific results you wanted) that you didn't specifically design for humans and wanted to call it synthetic HGH and haven't tested it yet in humans, but it made the z and palys multiply, well that is different. I can tell you that you now have something that you will not be able to use or call synthetic Human Growth Hormone.

But he put something esle in the water .....

Paragraph # 1 - DEAD ON !!! That's what I wanted to hear and see.

Paragraph # 2 - Yes, but you're missing something here.

Paragraph # 3 - Look at the last 2 sentences of your 3rd paragraph. Maybe it began as HGH? What do you think? I'm not giving up, and I don't want you to either.

Do you now believe that it's still impossible? I'm only asking.

 

[MUCHO REEF]

+1 with wycombs. Although one thing I learrned in my science courses is that many things are possible (duh haha). My problem though is that there is no control group in this experiment. Also he gathered data ( i love data), so is he gonna run a correlation analysis or ANOVA or anything else (since there is so little to none scientific reports on aquaria)? Going back to a control group what if the original polyps he used had some mutation already that caused them to replicate at an already increased rate? (thats why a control is so important...reduces error)

Another thing I see is that he injected various amounts of hgh into the polyps but yet they all reproduced at the same rate overall....eh so we can exclude a correlation analysis then. Did this other substance combine with the hgh to be of use for the polyps? or did it do the results itself ( smells like an ANOVA test). Did he continue injecting the polyps a second or third time? what were the procedures? Also its not too amazing if he does it again. The real thing that will be amazing is if other reefers can replicate it in their tanks with their Z's and P's and see the same results (when a scientist makes a conclusion in a published paper, others try to replicate it....if they dont come to the same conclusion numerous times they tear him apart haha)

So even though i see it as possible I see it as unlikely...but I have been wrong before in my hypothesis haha...SO I ACCEPT THE NULL hypothesis haha. Sorry for asking so many questions.

NO, don't be sorry for asking, I want you to. I'm not trying to be a jerk here, I just want someone to actually do what you are doing. Prove it right or wrong. Hey, forget proving it, just tell me what you think and that is exactly what you did. So thank you.

There's no control group that I listed. The answer is hidden in my initial post.

"Did this other substance combine with the hgh to be of use for the polyps?"

HMMMM, is that possible do you think?



Possible, unlikely, .....or no way?




Mucho Reef

 

[aquaph8]

So what your saying is its not one thing or another that may or may have caused the growth, but it may be the two combined to form something completely new or atleast a different form. I still have a problem with the whole injection part. I've heard of people using HGH in reef tanks before, but dosing rather than injection. If I remember corectly it was because HGH is full of amino acids and not because its a hormone. The only thing in my medicine cabinet that I could think of being used in a tank in Hydrogen Peroxide. I would think that would just oxygenate the tank though. Anyways thats the best I have for ya Mucho, Im a construction worker not a Dr.

 

[MUCHO REEF]

" So what your saying is its not one thing or another that may or may have caused the growth, but it may be the two combined to form something completely new or atleast a different form. "

BINGO, that's what I've been waiting for.

There is no further discussion needed. You guys can now say, Yes, this is possible, probable and it actually happened.

OR

NO, it's IMPOSSIBLE, not PROBABLE and could NEVER happen, nice try Mucho. Maybe it did, maybe it didn't. The exchange was very engaging and you're all going to be SHOCKED on Wednesday evening at 9 PM eastern time !!!


Mucho Reef

 

[kichimark]

"Did this other substance combine with the hgh to be of use for the polyps?"

HMMMM, is that possible do you think?



Possible, unlikely, .....or no way?


Mucho Reef

It would be improper of me to say no way without testing this myself. But everything is in a 3 dimensional shape and it COULD alter the substance somehow to be of use (the receptors wycombes mention accept something only if it has a specific 3 dimensional shape that will fit the receptor). There are many things that can happen. So possible? maybe, need to test it. Is it unlikely? depends what the hgh is mixed with. No way? I wouldn't say that without testing this myself

 

[kichimark]

haha i wrote that above statement after seeing you posted yours mucho.

Man...im gonna be in vegas on Wednesday...you're a tease Mucho haha

 

[wycombes]

Now I didn't say it is impossible. I said something that was made to be synthetic HGH would not work. It is something else. The mere fact that you are "asking" is hinting that it did happen, which are results and it is certainly possible to have something that gives growth results in z and p's.

Results and interpreting cause and effect for the results is a cause for much research and debate. Being able to deny or not deny the results (ie its a fraud etc) is very different from saying "the results are because I did this".

As Kichimark said, there are no controls, which means other possibilities exist for the results. When you post the results and an interpretation of what you think caused the growth, maybe multiple other reefers can evaluate and try (not sure of the availibility). If they have similar results then the anecdotal "experiments" will began to take hold, which is how much of the progress seem to happen in reefing, as propagating and having a home aquarium is not a hugely research funded endeavour of universities.

The other question would be, will those that can make the growth happen share with others?

 

[650-IS350]

Mooch, were you talking about the 2face protopaly which is basically 1 purple death and 1 nuclear green spliced together ?

 

[kichimark]

I would love to do a scientific experiment and analysis on something like this. This is what bummed me out interning at the aquarium...there was no research. Anyone want to donate some utter chaos for this? hahaha

 

[aquaph8]

Now I didn't say it is impossible. I said something that was made to be synthetic HGH would not work. It is something else. The mere fact that you are "asking" is hinting that it did happen, which are results and it is certainly possible to have something that gives growth results in z and p's.

Results and interpreting cause and effect for the results is a cause for much research and debate. Being able to deny or not deny the results (ie its a fraud etc) is very different from saying "the results are because I did this".

As Kichimark said, there are no controls, which means other possibilities exist for the results. When you post the results and an interpretation of what you think caused the growth, maybe multiple other reefers can evaluate and try (not sure of the availibility). If they have similar results then the anecdotal "experiments" will began to take hold, which is how much of the progress seem to happen in reefing, as propagating and having a home aquarium is not a hugely research funded endeavour of universities.

The other question would be, will those that can make the growth happen share with others?

I completely agree. Whats to say that one of these additives didn't have a reaction with one of the many chemicals we add to our tanks everyday as aposed to each other. Or that the whole thing is a bunch of BS and its just a ploy to sell a new product similar to all the hundred out there already. There is just too many variables to really say yes or no. The answer to wether or not they would share is hell no, why would they sell us something that actually works when they are so successful at selling us crap that doesn't.

 

[MUCHO REEF]

It would be improper of me to say no way without testing this myself. But everything is in a 3 dimensional shape and it COULD alter the substance somehow to be of use (the receptors wycombes mention accept something only if it has a specific 3 dimensional shape that will fit the receptor). There are many things that can happen. So possible? maybe, need to test it. Is it unlikely? depends what the hgh is mixed with. No way? I wouldn't say that without testing this myself

Hmm, I disagree, and it would not be improper my friend, here's why. If you indeed agree with post 18, 20, 21 and 24, and you have any scientific background or an understanding of DNA, drug/cell interaction, contraindications, genes, receptors or hormones etc etc etc, then yes, you could categorically say no. If you didn't have any scientific background, look at the growth rate alone, can anything on earth possibly produce and reproduce those results 3 months in a row?

Allow me to streamline the question. With what I've stated on page 1 at the very top, tell me, did this actually occur, YES or NO?

The second question, and only if you're not sure of the first question, could it happen? Yes or NO ?

 

[MUCHO REEF]

Now I didn't say it is impossible. I said something that was made to be synthetic HGH would not work. It is something else. The mere fact that you are "asking" is hinting that it did happen, which are results and it is certainly possible to have something that gives growth results in z and p's.

Results and interpreting cause and effect for the results is a cause for much research and debate. Being able to deny or not deny the results (ie its a fraud etc) is very different from saying "the results are because I did this".

As Kichimark said, there are no controls, which means other possibilities exist for the results. When you post the results and an interpretation of what you think caused the growth, maybe multiple other reefers can evaluate and try (not sure of the availibility). If they have similar results then the anecdotal "experiments" will began to take hold, which is how much of the progress seem to happen in reefing, as propagating and having a home aquarium is not a hugely research funded endeavour of universities.

The other question would be, will those that can make the growth happen share with others?

Are you saying HGH, ( which is a HUMAN, growth hormone) has the ability, when mixed with another compound, component, solid, gas, matter etc. can or still have the capacity to not only alter growth, but create Jurassic Park like growth? I'm not speaking of good growth, or great growth, I'm speaking of unheard of, unspeakable growth. I mean gene/cell reproduction would almost have to be constant at these rates.

I'm simply stating a sequence of events, not really hinting either way.

Control group? Can anyone recall, Google, share, post, think of a single study in aquaria where anyone, anywhere at anytime has ever produce growth such as this in zoanthids and palythoas? There is no data, no studies, NOTHING. Is there a single case study, experiment, etc on a mutation in any coral which could possible production and continuous reproduction 90 consecutive days in a row with physical/visual non stop, real time recorded growth?

Did this actually occur, YES or NO?

The second question, if it didn't happen, could it happen? Yes or NO ?

I really thank each of you for reading, researching, voicing and sharing your insight and opinions.


Mucho Reef

PS, I'm not saying that it did or didn't happen, I'm asking you. Did it or could it happen, you decide?

 

[dread240]

I believe it's possible, but I don't believe it is the actual base form of the HGH that caused it.

Remember there's actually 2 life forms at work here... the polyp... and the zooxanthellae, so it would have to be broken down into 3 parts.

A) The effect itself occurs in the polyp, which is the base animal in question
B) The effect occurs in the zooxanthellae, which thereby stimulates it and provides more food for the polyp in question.
C) Trace amounts cause a reaction somewhere else in the aquarium setting, providing ample growth for phyto or zooplankton which then in turn helps feed the corals in question.

Honestly, with hearing about how some people have had success with it in tanks in the past (just going by what others have said in this thread) I kinda shy away from A, and move more towards B, since that is the 1 thing ALMOST all corals have in common (granted there are non photosynthetic ones but it wasn't stated anything about them, and photosynthetic corals are more dominant in the hobby).

Either way, I sure as hell am not a scientist, I just build fast cars, but this is kind of interesting

 

[MUCHO REEF]

Mooch, were you talking about the 2face protopaly which is basically 1 purple death and 1 nuclear green spliced together ?

Yes sir. Share the story and the pics. Not sure that many people are even aware of this. Crazy stuff isn't it.

 

[luvdiving]

Forget the crazy talk.lets see the 2 faced. ...

 

[MUCHO REEF]

Forget the crazy talk.lets see the 2 faced. ...

36 replies with 365 views in 14 hours of posting this topic. We're having an intelligent discussion on something new........and it's CRAZY talk? WOW !!!

 

[kichimark]

I believe it's possible, but I don't believe it is the actual base form of the HGH that caused it.

Remember there's actually 2 life forms at work here... the polyp... and the zooxanthellae, so it would have to be broken down into 3 parts.

A) The effect itself occurs in the polyp, which is the base animal in question
B) The effect occurs in the zooxanthellae, which thereby stimulates it and provides more food for the polyp in question.
C) Trace amounts cause a reaction somewhere else in the aquarium setting, providing ample growth for phyto or zooplankton which then in turn helps feed the corals in question.

Honestly, with hearing about how some people have had success with it in tanks in the past (just going by what others have said in this thread) I kinda shy away from A, and move more towards B, since that is the 1 thing ALMOST all corals have in common (granted there are non photosynthetic ones but it wasn't stated anything about them, and photosynthetic corals are more dominant in the hobby).

Either way, I sure as hell am not a scientist, I just build fast cars, but this is kind of interesting

Dread--you may say you are not a scientist but sir you can hypothesize like one. :beer:

 

[kichimark]

Hmm, I disagree, and it would not be improper my friend, here's why. If you indeed agree with post 18, 20, 21 and 24, and you have any scientific background or an understanding of DNA, drug/cell interaction, contraindications, genes, receptors or hormones etc etc etc, then yes, you could categorically say no. If you didn't have any scientific background, look at the growth rate alone, can anything on earth possibly produce and reproduce those results 3 months in a row?

Allow me to streamline the question. With what I've stated on page 1 at the very top, tell me, did this actually occur, YES or NO?

The second question, and only if you're not sure of the first question, could it happen? Yes or NO ?

I say it would be improper of me to say YES or NO for several reasons. First I am new to palys and zoas and I have no knowledge on how fast they and their morphs grow. I will not say for sure if an experiment is true or not if I have not replicated it or someone else (not the original person) has either. Also the control group is important because it is being said hgh and something else is contributing to this rapid growth. There are many more variables and a control group would reduce error and give the experiment more of a scientific backing. Now you may say but there is rapid growth...how do we know for sure it was due to the hgh and the mysterious additive? Also it was stated he made daily observations, took video, and pictures daily so he was taking data down. I am just used to design and analysis and this is extremely important for the experiment. And since there isn't any (from what I know) real scientific experiments being done (I have seen some people state they wish there was) this is a perfect opportunity

Long story short Mucho is that I can not say YES or NO because there is a lot missing and from what I know in nature things do come together and change their configuration giving it a new purpose. I hold my ground saying it is not impossible.

I am not in any way trying to be an elitist in experimental design and if I come by that way I am sorry. I just see too many variables to say if it was this or that. It's just me.

 

[SIR PATRICK]

^ Think dread is on to something....sure sounds good.