Trying something new...SPS coloration

[der_wille_zur_macht]

Tom, can I attempt to translate/comment here?

A change in organic export via enhanced skimming or enhanced gac can change the way organics are organized since both of these methods selectively take certain hydrophobic and/or amphipathic organics and not others. It may change the overall level of organics or the mix of organics in ways that advantage or disadvantage the consumers at certain levels .

Are you agreeing with Pascal that putting the extremely powerful skimmer online might have been part of what triggered this, because it's selectively removing "too much" of some organics?

Personally, I get better color with halides and vho supplemetation for sps than I do with leds but I'm still open minded on them and may go there down the road.

IME this is really related to the way that LEDs commonly used today are "peaky" in different spectra than MH or T5 lamps commonly used, even if the overall color perceived by the human eye is the same. I think we're making lots of improvement in this area but there is still room to grow.

 

[tmz]

Tom, can I attempt to translate/comment here?



Are you agreeing with Pascal that putting the extremely powerful skimmer online might have been part of what triggered this, because it's selectively removing "too much" of some organics?



IME this is really related to the way that LEDs commonly used today are "peaky" in different spectra than MH or T5 lamps commonly used, even if the overall color perceived by the human eye is the same. I think we're making lots of improvement in this area but there is still room to grow.

The increased skimming and the gac could be part of the issue as they export more organics with an affinity for carbon or the air water interface of the skimmer in a situation where baseline organics import was low at the start ; a balance issue concerning the organics not necessarily the inorganic nutrients..
Personally, I like heavy skimming and gac for a number of reasons including aeration and ph control with CO2 scrubbers on them and metals removal. GFO is also good at taking out free metals. I also prefer lots of organics ( ( from foods ,waster and microfuana and organic carbon dosing) moving through the system without hanging around long enough to degrade into overly high levels of inorganic nutrients .
For those organics that do degrade reconverting them to organics via bacterial activity from organic carbon dosing and or increased sponge activity combined with skimming and gac and gfo for any leftover inorganic phosphate. works for me.

 

[der_wille_zur_macht]

Tom, you mention not using mechanical filters. Have you ever done so? I'd be curious to know what a filter sock would catch in your system. I'm struggling to figure out how to quantify the "stuff" in the water column we're talking about (plankton, food particles, particles of waste, and so on). If we think organics and/or food availability might play a role in coral coloration/success, how do we know if we have the right levels of the right organics and food?

 

[mr86mister]

I love these kinds of threads. So much information!! The combination of experience, knowledge, know how, and thought makes these the best to read! Following along myself. Great to see everyone's minds put to the test!

 

[Gravesj1s]

Theres so little information to go by when it comes to exactly what corals eat or even if some of them do or how they do it.Acro's can obtain "stuff" in a few ways,though its never been proven they capture and consume through polyps it doesn't mean they dont feed ,they can feed through coral slime.

Nate I did get your point about exactly what nutrients and being careful about what exactly that means,even more so after seeing Tmz's first post.

On that note,yeah I realize it ,but its to complex and gets confusing in that theres so many forms and categorys we could be refering to.(i.e-DOC,DOM,DOP,DON,TOC.
Just as well most of this stuff is'nt measurable.well,I guess it could be with that the 50K device.

I could be entirely wrong,but as I see it what we would be concerned with is TOC but its enough for me to look at my tank and not notice any yellowing of the water especially when viewed through the long side of it and running rox08 in small amounts seems to be enough.That and zoa' health.Just my opinion but I feel they do better for me with less.
Fwiw-tmz ,I do get what your saying,using a phrase Ive seen you use here."Its possible to have organic carbon available but of the wrong flavor" ,being it covers even terpinoids,tannins ,growth inhibiting compunds..ect.
I guess I thought it would just confuse matters more.

The OP was obviously refering to your tank tom noting the amount of bioload and fish it supports yet has beautiful sps.At the same time stating in your dosing thread is struggling with articles describing wildreefs as nutrient poor.
I made an attempt at why that might be.And that ,although these articles maybe true they can be somewhat misleading or confusing.Perhaps used more as a general guidline.

-Steve

 

[Gravesj1s]

Steve/Nate/Mark -

Glad I'm not a lone ranger on this. The goal is you said, introducing nutrients into the water column, but at the same time managing the PO4 and NO3 levels via conventional husbandry along with Carbon Dosing. I've opted for a range of food sizes to cover the spectrum. The larger are geared at the fish, the small in hopes of direct consumption from the SPS, but I wont know if this is really happening.

If it works I still wont know how the SPS are consuming, but I will have a nicer tank which is half way there.

As you can tell from the pictures above I'm lacking in color.

As I said , I probably have less experience with sps that anyone in the forum and I haven't carbon dosed so no experience there either.I have no advice.Just opinion based on my reading so take that for what its worth.Just pointing out a common denominator of members tanks seemm to share.Inport and export are similar but differ in the ways they use to do it.
Tom carbon doses ,Gary M doesnt,just as an example of course.

I know from talking to you you meant "if" you started to see high readings of n03 & p04 your plan is to start carbon dosing.Seems like a good plan to me.

-Steve

 

[Gravesj1s]

Not to throw fuel on the fire.
When increasing the input whitch do you think will be the first to prevail ,algae or bacteria before reaching a balance or even if algaes have a chance?
Anyone want to take a stab at it?

My vote says the nusiance one......

FWIW- yes, Iam trying to break the forum record for the most mispelled words.

-Steve

 

[pascal32]

I vote algae

 

[tmz]

When increasing the input whitch do you think will be the first to prevail ,algae or bacteria before reaching a balance or even if algaes have a chance?
Anyone want to take a stab at it?

Algae are opportunistic but so are bacteria. It depends on what the input is in terms of the amounts of nitrogen,phosphorous and organic carbon reached in the tank . The heterotrophic bacteria that reduce NO3 and PO4 need the organic carbon ; autotrophic algae doesn't as it can make it's own .
Some strains of cyano bacteria won't need the nitrogen either as they can make their own organic carbon and fix nitrogen.
So, keeping phosphate continuously low is most effectively limiting for nuisance algae and cyano.

If I were going to increase feeding . I'd probably run a bit of gfo along with it to help keep the PO4 low and to pull out some of the extrametals and silicate that might come in with the food or other supplements that might be used.

 

[tmz]

Tom, you mention not using mechanical filters. Have you ever done so? I'd be curious to know what a filter sock would catch in your system. I'm struggling to figure out how to quantify the "stuff" in the water column we're talking about (plankton, food particles, particles of waste, and so on). If we think organics and/or food availability might play a role in coral coloration/success, how do we know if we have the right levels of the right organics and food?

I use them rarely when I'm stirring something up and cleaning. I hAve no idea what would accumulate with regular use. I think the best we can do is measure and manage the PO4 and NO3 while exporting organics through skimming and gac which increase in importance when adding extra organics.

 

[tmz]

I'd add that snotty stuff which appears to be bacterial mulm grow in them within a day when I use them. Probably, bacteria go there to get the accumulated organic material and grow elsewhere when the mechanical filters are not in place.

 

[der_wille_zur_macht]

Here's another slightly relevant article:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-10/rhf/index.php

 

[Gravesj1s]

Algae are opportunistic but so are bacteria. It depends on what the input is in terms of the amounts of nitrogen,phosphorous and organic carbon reached in the tank . The heterotrophic bacteria that reduce NO3 and PO4 need the organic carbon ; autotrophic algae doesn't as it can make it's own .
Some strains of cyano bacteria won't need the nitrogen either as they can make their own organic carbon and fix nitrogen.
So, keeping phosphate continuously low is most effectively limiting for nuisance algae and cyano.

If I were going to increase feeding . I'd probably run a bit of gfo along with it to help keep the PO4 low and to pull out some of the extrametals and silicate that might come in with the food or other supplements that might be used.

That makes sense,Tom.

Ive wondered if theres some relationship between wheather or not algaes that appear might have to do with the proportions C/N/P.Ive seen Blurry & oneradtec post parameters that were well below the norm for N03 & Po4,yet somehow were having nusiance algae growth.I think Willistien posted a 0 No3 in this thread as well and seems to be dealing with dinoflagellates.

Just to put a perspective , I've been growing fruit trees for a few years now and every spring I pickup fertilizer, the guy asks what its for.For fruit trees I notice the ratio of C/N/P differs from when I got fertilizer for my vegetable garden.I wonder if this plays a role in what algaes we might see in aquariums I'd think it would have more to do with C :N than P but thats just a guess.

I have a link to a somewhat biased site.Its definately not of any sound science but it makes me wonder if something could be used in a similar way.(i ex.- If 9 out of 10 people appear to experience dinoflagellates when No3 reads below what the salifert kit can detect as well as maintain .03 or below po4 or if a high percentage of aquarists experience debersia with no3 readings between x & po4 at y.

Given that cyano is the only I know of that can use N2 ,and everytime I see a post on dinos they always seem to have undectable No3.It definately makes me wonder.I'm not saying these algaes aren't just stripping nitrogen as fast as it appears just that its interesting to think about.

Just curious to any thoughts out there.

-Steve

 

[Gravesj1s]

Here's another slightly relevant article:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-10/rhf/index.php

Good read Nate,thanks.

I noticed near the end of the article talks of yellowing compounds.I dont see it mentioned much nowadays but at one time most people used a yellow marker on a sheet of paper then placed it against the glass while viewing through the opposite side of the aquarium you wouldn't be able to see the yellow marker if yellowing was becoming an issue or activated carbon needed to be changed was the thought
It actually worked surprisingly well.I wonder if this trick might be better than the brs calulator being every tank is different.Just a thought.

-Steve

 

[pascal32]

SPS look about the same, LPS look a bit fuller and the Acans look much fuller (then again they are being fed daily now). There is a bit if algae starting to show. I'm going to check NO3 and PO4 tomorrow. I haven't been water changing for over a week, planning on starting back up shortly.

on an interesting note my alkalinity dropped from 8.5 to 7 in the course of the last week and a half (usually check weekly, log says it's been a week and half). I'm optimistic that growth is accelerating and causing the decrease in alkalinity.

checked the effluent on the kalk reactor and I'm still at 11.95 PH which is where it has been for a while. It should be at 12.5 [reference: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rhf/index.php], more on that another day.

upped 2-part dosing for 1/2 kh per day raise, continuing with journey

 

[der_wille_zur_macht]

How are you measuring pH of the kalk? I wouldn't expect a probe calibrated at seawater pH to be super-accurate. I'd look more for a steady value than for a specific value.

Regarding the drop in alkalinity - do you have any idea how much the missed water changes affect that? Does your new ASW match the tank on that parameter?

 

[Brent Thomann]

Hi Pascal and everyone, been a while ehh. I've noticed in the past few months my sps in my one system have looked the best I've ever seen them look over the years and I believe it has to to with dirty water.

Things I've done differently the past 6 months since my tanks haven't been a priority and since my tank crash over the summer. Only one water change (1/4 Oceanic 3/4 Instant Ocean), removed skimmer completely, no carbon or calcium reactor anymore, ONLY adding ALK once or twice a week, top off water, and pellets for fish. I haven't tested my water in months because my corals have been looking good. I know my parameters are all over the place, last I check my DKH was 5 which is why I dose ALK. I do get algae growing in my one tank with no tangs and in my big tank where the tangs can't reach so I just pull it out by hand as needed (once or twice a month), come out in big easy clumps.

Now I have another system thats a 30% bigger with the same parameters/maintenance and the corals don't look nearly as nice. I believe it has to with the water being cleaner. I only have one fish (tang) that I feed every couple days (pellets).

The one thing I do make sure to spend time with is replacing my DI Resin. This is what I believed cause my tank crash over the summer. I can tell a difference in my system/corals when my TDS starts raising to 1 or 2. I change my DI Resin bringing my TDS back to 0 and soon after my corals start smiling.

Once I do get back into the hobby full time I plan on setting up an dump bucket style Algal Turf Scrubber and strangely continue to NOT use a skimmer since I'm currently not using one and things are fine. My Skimmer is a beast (7 foot) and uses two 90 watt Recirculation pumps, so not running also helps a little on my electric bill.

Hope to see you all around soon some day.

Brent

 

[Gravesj1s]

Ironic to read the part about tds Brent ,and I agree.Theres several members that know including Pascal outside of posting that I ,too half crashed my tank because of a faulty tds meter.I noticed something was not right but couldn't pinpoint what it was.Started noticing purple/pink coralline was looking more maroon color.
So in an attempt to rectify the situation I started doing big water changes whitch really made things worse.

In the end ,aftera losing battle I opened the di cannisters to find they'd been operating as mechanical filters and, my tds meter was reading 0 the whole time.Still in recovery mode right now but definately on the up.I dont know exactly how or why but I think I can tell the difference in tds from 1-2 and a 0.

Goodluck with your tanks,

-Steve

 

[der_wille_zur_macht]

The thing about TDS is it's generic. It doesn't tell you WHAT is in the water, just that there's something there besides water. My water at TDS 5 might be harmless but your water even at TDS 1 might be very bad.

 

[tmz]

Hi Brent. Good to hear from you.