Tube feeding success - regal angel

[alprazo]

You have to realize it is INCREDIBLY daunting for the average fish keeper to think about doing this. I'll freely admit, I don't have the nads to try this.

I get it. It is very time consuming too and not inexpensive.

But having done this for years with sharks, with both rigid and semirigid tubes I thought the transition to smaller fish might be possible. When I researched it, I initially found an old post in a news group of someone tube feeding an american eel and a video of someone sticking a turkey baster full of food into the stomach of a lionfish. I thought maybe.

I first chose the clownfish, a hardy, captive raised, inexpensive fish that was already eating. I then decided on the angio catheter because they are hollow, flexible, soft, rounded and come in many sizes. If they were soft enough to insert into a vein, then I figured that they could be inserted into the stomachs fish that sometimes eat hard crustaceans, bristle worms, fins, and other abrasive matter.

In the past, especially with toothed sharks, I lubricated the rigid tube with Pam cooking spray. With the Stat, it is very oily and allows the catheter to slide in.

As for injury, it can definitely happen. I believe I injured and killed my short tail nurse shark pup. I had to hatch it myself and it was terribly thin and weak. I kept it alive for a while with the feeds, but I think I did puncture its esophagus or stomach during the last feeding. I didn't sedate it and it acted injured immediately after the feeding. Dead in the AM.

I purchased the regal because the price was incredible, probably because it wasn't eating, and figured I would give it a go. For most, they should probably leave a fish like that in the store.

I think that using this technique could be very helpful for the store owner with valuable livestock or the person interested in very expensive, rare, and or notoriously difficult fish.

 

[SDguy]

I get it. It is very time consuming too and not inexpensive.

Neither of those last two issues bother me. The fear of hurting the fish is my only issue.

 

[Dmorty217]

I want to attempt this with chromis and I have a one spot foxface I'm 99% sure is blind now. I haven't seen him eat since early November and it seems as though he runs into things and won't move around the tank much. It worth a try before euthenizing him I suppose. I am not taking force feeding lightly but I feel that it's a invaluable tool to have at your disposal and the more you do it the more comfortable and efficient you become at doing it. (At least that's the idea/goal)

 

[alprazo]

The fear of hurting the fish is my only issue.

Yes, but what's the alternative. I've seen many die of starvation, they just never start eating. At least this gives them a chance. A buddy of mine fed a shark over a year before it learned to eat. That is dedication.

If your fox face is blind and unable to eat, it's time might be up. The tube feeds are more of a transition tool. And chromis, I've seen them go belly up just from putting them in a bag. Not the best fish to learn on.

 

[Dmorty217]

Yes, but what's the alternative. I've seen many die of starvation, they just never start eating. At least this gives them a chance. A buddy of mine fed a shark over a year before it learned to eat. That is dedication.

If your fox face is blind and unable to eat, it's time might be up. The tube feeds are more of a transition tool. And chromis, I've seen them go belly up just from putting them in a bag. Not the best fish to learn on.

Im going to euthanize the foxface, he is 100% blind I was able to net him and he never saw it coming. What's good fish to learn on Alprazo? Chromis are very cheap that's why I said them. Obviously clownfish are good candidates. I would like to attempt this a couple of times and get efficient at doing it before trying something like a shark (I hope that I never have to do it on a shark) Regal angels are tempting to try but they don't make good shark tankmates correct?

 

[ThRoewer]

I have to try this - it's either this or flushing a $450 Red Sea regal down the drain. The fish hasn't eaten for 5 weeks now and starts to show weight loss in its neck (it's stomach doesn't look fallen in at all). This is the last option to turn this fish around.

I found the STAT on Amazon: STAT : High Caloric Liquid Diet - 16 oz
I also found Pedialyte Oral Electrolyte Solution - Unflavored to prepare the STAT mix with

The thing I can't find is a small catheter. All I could find so far were 10fr (3.33 mm) urinary catheters.

I'm not sure if 3ml Plastic Transfer Pipettes are good for this purpose. I'm mostly concerned that they may be too sharp.
I also found a 0.5 ml version which may be better suited.

The question now is, how many ml to pump into a 4.75 inch regal angel? And how often?

Here is a video how the fish acts (it's the biggest of the 3 regals):
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/u5XoS14Sy4M" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Dmorty217]

I have to try this - it's either this or flushing a $450 Red Sea regal down the drain. The fish hasn't eaten for 5 weeks now and starts to show weight loss in its neck (it's stomach doesn't look fallen in at all). This is the last option to turn this fish around.

I found the STAT on Amazon: STAT : High Caloric Liquid Diet - 16 oz
I also found Pedialyte Oral Electrolyte Solution - Unflavored to prepare the STAT mix with

The thing I can't find is a small catheter. All I could find so far were 10fr (3.33 mm) urinary catheters.

I'm not sure if 3ml Plastic Transfer Pipettes are good for this purpose. I'm mostly concerned that they may be too sharp.
I also found a 0.5 ml version which may be better suited.

The question now is, how many ml to pump into a 4.75 inch regal angel? And how often?

Here is a video how the fish acts (it's the biggest of the 3 regals):
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/u5XoS14Sy4M" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Not much, this is better suited to practice on a feeder goldfish before jumping to a regal. One to get the sedation dosing correct, the other is to get the placement of the feeding tube correct (in the stomach and not just the throat) you will need some stat and pedialyte to mix it in to make it thin enough to force feed with. Pipets may work but you have to get the feel for getting the tube in the fish far enough. You know if you have done it right or not by the amount of stat the fish expels. You will need a prescription to get the catheter like you need

 

[ThRoewer]

It seems Finquel, MS-222 or tricaine are no longer available. At least not from online stores. Clove oil is so far the only thing I could find.

As for the catheter, I need to look through my model building scrap box. I may have some catheter tubing form my days in stent manufacturing.
I definitely got a bunch of small gage stainless steel tubing - leftover ends from laser cutting stent. Most are in the 1.5 mm to 1.8 mm range, but I'm kind of hesitant to use rigid tubing.

The biggest question is how deep to go when inserting the tube. It would help to hear from those who did it with a regal before.

This is the actual fish that needs treatment:

From the fish anatomy information I found I would guess the stomach starts about where the first white body band is (where the "i" of LiveAquaria is in the picture).
Is that about right or is it deeper?

 

[ginpang]

On the red devil cichlid it was roughly past the pectoral fins... But it kinda jams at a certain point. Like I said I was probably using a 1 cc. Plastic Seringe.
@ dmorty has a point ...practising on a 99cent fish is a good idea.

 

[ThRoewer]

Well, I'll start practicing on a goldfish as soon as I can get all the needed supplies together.

I have syringes and may even be able to jury rig a catheter from some shrink tubing and a large syringe needle.
But the STAT will likely take a week to arrive so I need to mix something from flake food.

The biggest issue is the sedation.
Finquel seems to be discontinued and generic Tricaine Methanesulfonate is also nowhere to find.
Looks like the fish has to handle it without sedation.

 

[Dmorty217]

Don't use the rigid tubing, it won't end well. As for how deep to go.. You will feel resistance as the catheter passes thru the throat then it will move freely again you don't want to go too much further after it gets easier to move again. I first practiced on 3/4" goldfish. Still have the one in a 10g tank in my basement who has been force fed a couple dozen times. Pentairaes.com sells Tricaine

 

[alprazo]

ThRoewer

PM me your address. You can use flake food. Some fish can be done without sedation. It all depends if the fish will allow you to open its mouth. If not, you must sedate.

 

[ThRoewer]

ThRoewer

PM me your address. You can use flake food. Some fish can be done without sedation. It all depends if the fish will allow you to open its mouth. If not, you must sedate.

PM sent.

This fish seems to be fairly weak by now, but it may just appear that way because it is in a energy saving mode. I think it is still better to give it a light sedation to calm it down during the procedure.

LA told me that by their assessment this fish has a swim bladder issue. Their suggestion is to (hand) feed it boiled peas.
To do that I would basically have to make a thick split pea soup.
I may just do that with some flake food mixed in.

Another thing I'm a bit worried about is that this fish's stomach may have contracted/atrophied quite a bit due to not eating for over a month. I see how quickly the little Sumatra regals are full - their stomachs can't be too large to begin with.
So I probably have to tube feed at least twice a day with maybe only 0.1 to 0.3 ccm per feeding.
I will try to slowly raise that amount to be able to reduce the tube feeds to only once a day or once every other day.

My Philippine regals have by now adapted to only a few major feedings a day and are able to eat significantly more each feeding despite being smaller. I take it that their stomachs have enlarged to adapt to aquarium life.

 

[ginpang]

Baby jar Peas 99 cents or less at any pharmacy, supermarket, corner stores etc...

 

[alprazo]

ThR, its in the mail. BTW, my regal that started this thread is still alive and well today.

 

[humaguy]

ThR, its in the mail. BTW, my regal that started this thread is still alive and well today.

glad you helped....

 

[ThRoewer]

ThR, its in the mail. BTW, my regal that started this thread is still alive and well today.

Thanks!

Let's hope it isn't already too late for this fish.

 

[Dmorty217]

Either way you will have what you need. Alprazo did the same for me a year ago. Very knowledgable and extremely helpful!

 

[Martini5788]

If you are looking for iv catheter tubing, it shouldn't be hard to go to a vet hospital and ask them for a iv catheter WITH the needle removed or a small gauge red rubber catheter. I doubt they would have a problem selling it to you for extremely cheap if the needle is removed. Just tell them the purpose of it, the vet may want to talk to you but it shouldn't be an issue. I'm a vet tech, and know a lot of vets. None of them would have an issue with that. You could also ask for a Tom cat catheter, which will be in the middle of the iv and red rubber size wise.

 

[ThRoewer]

That's one of the things I really miss about Germany - you can get these kind of things at every pharmacy, medical supply stores and even amazon.de - for the same reasons you can't get them in the US.
Infusion lines, syringes, sharp needles - no problem.