Turnover rate
- Thread starter Tracey2
- Start date
dave.m
Active member
Normally you would separate the two types of flow: return rate from sump is usually geared to match that of your skimmer's requirements, whereas flow within the tank is accomplished by additional powerheads and/or a closed loop system. In other words, you don't need to send as much flow to your sump as you need to have within the display tank itself. Water is sent to the sump for cleaning/processing. Usually the amount of flow to the sump is about five or six times tank volume per hour, but balance this to meet your skimmer as noted. An additional ten or more tank volumes per hour is then accomplished within the display tank itself by in-tank means as noted.
Also, you don't need multiple threads per tank. Usually people just start one build thread and keep all questions and answers relating to the same tank in the one thread. This makes it easier for others to follow along as your tank develops. Just a suggestion.
Dave.M
Also, you don't need multiple threads per tank. Usually people just start one build thread and keep all questions and answers relating to the same tank in the one thread. This makes it easier for others to follow along as your tank develops. Just a suggestion.
Dave.M
Tracey2
Member
Thanks Dave.
Yes, the minute I posted this question I realized I was talking two different types of flow.
I guess my question should be what is recommended flow rate thru filtration. You say 5-6 times, is this 5-6 times the display volume or system volume?
My next question would be which return pump to get this flow from the basement below with minimal turns and easiest on my hydro bill?
I guess I hadn't really thought of starting a tank build thread yet but probably a good idea.
Yes, the minute I posted this question I realized I was talking two different types of flow.
I guess my question should be what is recommended flow rate thru filtration. You say 5-6 times, is this 5-6 times the display volume or system volume?
My next question would be which return pump to get this flow from the basement below with minimal turns and easiest on my hydro bill?
I guess I hadn't really thought of starting a tank build thread yet but probably a good idea.
dave.m
Active member
Sorry, some people say total system volumes but that can get pretty meaningless if you start adding separate tanks for seep sand beds, refugiums, etc. so I usually go by display tank volumes.
To calculate return pump flow rates it might be a good idea to start looking for skimmers to get an idea how much flow-thru the skimmer will require. That will give you an idea of how much you will then need to pump back up to the tank, i.e. the amount that flows down is controlled by how much is pumped back up.
When pumping from a long way away, and especially when pumping from a lower floor up to the display tank, you need to make sure you choose a return pump that not only has the ability to pump a lot of water, but also has the ability to pump against gravity's pressure plus the added resistance of the plumbing, including any turns and valves. This resistance to flow is called "head pressure" and is a separate measurement given by pump manufacturers. To accurately calculate head you must measure the layout of your return plumbing, including all twists, turns and bends, as these all add to the resistance (head) against the return flow. Once you have figured out your plumbing, there are many calculators on the web, including here on RC, for calculating total head pressure. With that information you can begin to shop for pumps, including looking at watts of power used in order to figure out which would be least expensive energy-wise to run.
It doesn't sound like you are reading any books on setting up a reef tank. I would suggest you do so, as all these basic questions are answered there. If you haven't already got any favourite reef authors I would suggest the e-books by Mr. Saltwater Tank to get you started. His are the most up to date I have seen and he generally agrees with me so I think that makes him okay reading.
Dave.M
To calculate return pump flow rates it might be a good idea to start looking for skimmers to get an idea how much flow-thru the skimmer will require. That will give you an idea of how much you will then need to pump back up to the tank, i.e. the amount that flows down is controlled by how much is pumped back up.
When pumping from a long way away, and especially when pumping from a lower floor up to the display tank, you need to make sure you choose a return pump that not only has the ability to pump a lot of water, but also has the ability to pump against gravity's pressure plus the added resistance of the plumbing, including any turns and valves. This resistance to flow is called "head pressure" and is a separate measurement given by pump manufacturers. To accurately calculate head you must measure the layout of your return plumbing, including all twists, turns and bends, as these all add to the resistance (head) against the return flow. Once you have figured out your plumbing, there are many calculators on the web, including here on RC, for calculating total head pressure. With that information you can begin to shop for pumps, including looking at watts of power used in order to figure out which would be least expensive energy-wise to run.
It doesn't sound like you are reading any books on setting up a reef tank. I would suggest you do so, as all these basic questions are answered there. If you haven't already got any favourite reef authors I would suggest the e-books by Mr. Saltwater Tank to get you started. His are the most up to date I have seen and he generally agrees with me so I think that makes him okay reading.
Dave.M
Tracey2
Member
Hey Dave, this ain't my first reef tank. I know about head pressure etc. I am just trying to get an idea of what pumps are the newest greatest things these days. What are my choices in large pumps, then I can look into them and do my calculations.
As for the skimmer, I was looking at it in reverse, I will get the skimmer rated to the flow I want/need.
Not to sound unappreciative, thanks for helping.
As for the skimmer, I was looking at it in reverse, I will get the skimmer rated to the flow I want/need.
Not to sound unappreciative, thanks for helping.
Themonsterisme
New member
I've had great luck with the DC12000 controllable pumps...my new system is about 475 gallons and the DC will work perfect...I've used it on a tank as small as a 25"x25"x12" with a 20 gal sump and up to 225 gal and now soon my 475 gal setup
dave.m
Active member
Tracey, I suggest you work out the head pressure as this will dramatically cut down the list of possible pumps.
There are two ways to go with pumps that can handle a lot of head pressure: the older style pumps and the newer DC pumps as Themonsterisme has suggested. With the DC pumps you can choose from expensive top-of-the-line stuff like Abyzz or the newer, more economical pumps like Waveline, though some people have had issues with these. The thing with the DC pumps is that, after you get over the upfront costs they are cooler, and more economical to run in the long run, and don't have as many maintenance issues as the older style pumps.
Still, there's lots to choose from, so knowing your head pressure would let you narrow the list of possibilities and then you can get into details on what's left.
Dave.M
There are two ways to go with pumps that can handle a lot of head pressure: the older style pumps and the newer DC pumps as Themonsterisme has suggested. With the DC pumps you can choose from expensive top-of-the-line stuff like Abyzz or the newer, more economical pumps like Waveline, though some people have had issues with these. The thing with the DC pumps is that, after you get over the upfront costs they are cooler, and more economical to run in the long run, and don't have as many maintenance issues as the older style pumps.
Still, there's lots to choose from, so knowing your head pressure would let you narrow the list of possibilities and then you can get into details on what's left.
Dave.M
My two cents on the topic .....
Flow through the sump is fine at 2-3 times display volume. Higher certainly cannot hurt, but I see no particular benefit to it. Personally I prefer a main pump with a long track record of reliability - failure can be problematic for any system unlike almost any other piece of equipment. I am also an external pump advocate, so none of the DC models would be an option for me, even if they did have a long track record (which they don't). My last main pump ran continuously for me for almost 20 years.
Flow within the tank is better accomplished with power heads. I too have an Achilles in my tank and it spends most of the day swimming in and out of the current produced by my vortech pumps. Massive flow from the main return is unecessary in this regard.
Flow through the sump is fine at 2-3 times display volume. Higher certainly cannot hurt, but I see no particular benefit to it. Personally I prefer a main pump with a long track record of reliability - failure can be problematic for any system unlike almost any other piece of equipment. I am also an external pump advocate, so none of the DC models would be an option for me, even if they did have a long track record (which they don't). My last main pump ran continuously for me for almost 20 years.
Flow within the tank is better accomplished with power heads. I too have an Achilles in my tank and it spends most of the day swimming in and out of the current produced by my vortech pumps. Massive flow from the main return is unecessary in this regard.
Tracey2
Member
Thanks for the suggestions guys, I appreciate all the input I can get. I guess you ask 100 people you get 100 different answers according to everyone's personal experiences but I need help to make a few large decisions, return pump, skimmer, lighting I want to go with all T5's.
I currently run 2 Dolphin ampmaster 3000's, one for a return and one on a closed loop with ocean motion, so I am used to alot of flow. The new tank is not going to be closed loop but I don't want to compromise flow and of course want the most reliable and most economical.
When I get closer to tank delivery date I will start a dedicated build thread.
I currently run 2 Dolphin ampmaster 3000's, one for a return and one on a closed loop with ocean motion, so I am used to alot of flow. The new tank is not going to be closed loop but I don't want to compromise flow and of course want the most reliable and most economical.
When I get closer to tank delivery date I will start a dedicated build thread.
Hi Tracey Denny here
Your on the right path ,Shoot for about 6x system volume for turnover , for flow rare start at 40x but I'd shoot more for 70-100x if Sps focussed , on your dimensions you'll need a lot of showerhead , even a mp 60 loses its push about 4ft out. Maybe look into some wp 60 for cheap but strong flow.
Pumping from the basement and still keeping turnover in your tank will be tough , look at a pair of reeflo pumps maybe the snapper/dart hybrids , they are external though and you should look at external.
Cheers
Denny
Your on the right path ,Shoot for about 6x system volume for turnover , for flow rare start at 40x but I'd shoot more for 70-100x if Sps focussed , on your dimensions you'll need a lot of showerhead , even a mp 60 loses its push about 4ft out. Maybe look into some wp 60 for cheap but strong flow.
Pumping from the basement and still keeping turnover in your tank will be tough , look at a pair of reeflo pumps maybe the snapper/dart hybrids , they are external though and you should look at external.
Cheers
Denny
Indeed, as many ways to run a reef tank as skinning the proverbial cat. Key is to decide what makes sense TO YOU. Lots of things people do that don't really do all that much, either in terms of benefit or harm.
Dmorty217
Saltwater Addict
Reeflo makes a commercial power 3hp pump you can purchase thru aquarium specialty.com. It puts out 12,500gph, that with a couple of 1.5" sea swirls and some penductors. If the tank isn't drilled for a CL then just plumb it in the tank. I know a guy who has 6 mp60s on his 900g and has good flow but not enough for your AT
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