Update on big tank setup & plumbing questions

[jeremyjoslin]

Just an update here for those I've involved in my quest for wisdom as I prepare to buy a custom 300dd tank...

I have 2 preferred vendors in mind for my 300DD and almost ready to pull the trigger except that:

1.) my contractor doesn't have my floor reinforcement started yet because he has a few more important jobs going right now
2.) I don't have the back porch wall removed yet or sliding door ordered yet (I'll need to remove a door and window and replace with sliding door to even get the tank in my house)
3.) I haven't seen enough DD tanks to be sure I want to pay so much for a tank I've never seen before

Soooooo.....

While I wait I picked up a 40g breeder and stand for the living room that I'm going to plumb to my basement sump as an interim tank. It will be in the same place as the big tank will be, and hopeful be able to re-use all the plumbing if I do it right.

I bought a glass-holes overflow kit and return line kit to drill the breeder. I'm going to run flex-PVC from my sump in the basement up to the floor under the tank. Right now, my return lines are 1.5" since everyone says bigger is better (pure rumor), but the bulkhead to this breeder will only be 3/4".

Question #1: Should I run 1.5" flex-pvc up and through the floor, and then put a union right at floor level, almost sitting on the floor, and then run 3/4" line from there? Or run the 1.5" line uninterrupted to the bulkhead and bushing down there? My worry is that I'm running 25' of flex-pvc and I want to be very careful about the weight of the heavy flex-pvc on the thin glass of this tank.

Question #2. Knowing that I'll eventually have a much larger tank and need for overflow flow in the future, what size drain line should I run to my sump? I've done 2" hard PVC in previous builds but always thought it was too much. Plus, I'd like to run a herbie style drain (on new tank) so should I run a 1" drain with full siphon and a 2" drain for emergency overflow? I'm probably going to drill an extra hole in the side of my 40b for an emergency overflow (bulkhead with 90 elbow turned upward) which is herbie-esque but not fully herbie.

I really need some expert consultants in my life. Thanks, everyone for your help.

 

[SkiFletch]

Well with plumbing decisions, you first needto decide on a rough flow rate you want and then work from there. MOST folks aim for around five times their tank capacity per hour. So in your case that would be 1500gph. If it were ME doing it, I'd aim for 13-1500, a little lower since return pumps are inherently inefficient. Next take yourself to the calculators and input your expected fittings with pipe size, select a pump and see if your in the ballpark of flow rate. If you're close, see Whig increasing diameter helps. There are also drain calcs there too.

To directly answer your question about the flex pipe, you should ABSOLOUTELY be strain relieving both lines to som framing in the first floor/basement ceiling. Even if using hard line you should do it. Way too much weight for he glass. I would just use the union and smaller pipe from there

And for the emergency drain, AT LEAST 2". I would feel safer with 2.5" to be honest. It's your Emergency drain, you want to over size it

 

[Eastamherstbias]

Oversize your emergency drain. I had a stupid astrea snail go into a pipe and cause 80 gallons to go up but not down.

Get an apex and tie everything into it.

-TEMP
-PH
-ORP
-LIGHTS
-ATO with a high and low float switch
-GFO
-SKIMMER
- High float switch hidden on main tank so if the tank is about to overflow, the switch is triggered/ all pumps go off and an email is sent.
-Floor water sensor. So if water is detected on the main tank floor/ all pumps stop and email is sent.

Happy Building and don't cheap out.

 

[jeremyjoslin]

Get an apex and tie everything into it.

Already done long ago. I'm building backwards with a full system in the basement going for 8 months, and no DT to tie it to yet. Strange, yes, but allows me to keep a few smaller tanks downstairs and grow lots of frags and fish for when the DT is ready (and then just move them up).

 

[jeremyjoslin]

Well with plumbing decisions, you first needto decide on a rough flow rate you want and then work from there. MOST folks aim for around five times their tank capacity per hour. So in your case that would be 1500gph. If it were ME doing it, I'd aim for 13-1500, a little lower since return pumps are inherently inefficient. Next take yourself to the calculators and input your expected fittings with pipe size, select a pump and see if your in the ballpark of flow rate. If you're close, see Whig increasing diameter helps. There are also drain calcs there too.

I'm using a Reeflo Hammerhead which will still push 3600gph at 16' vertical head (and I'm only doing 14' max). Using the flow calculator, I'm still well above 1500gph with my fittings. I'm currently also feeding a manifold for other small refugiums and tanks in the basement which I'll continue to do and will decrease my flow upstairs by some (but who knows how much).

Your advice is appreciated, but I'm also at the point where I'm looking for tips from those who've done something similar before and have some wisdom to pass on with regards to best practices that don't necessarily have to do with flow (is that safe to assume?).

 

[jeremyjoslin]

To directly answer your question about the flex pipe, you should ABSOLOUTELY be strain relieving both lines to som framing in the first floor/basement ceiling. Even if using hard line you should do it. Way too much weight for he glass. I would just use the union and smaller pipe from there

OK... so how? Will a union sitting on the floor be enough? I will also support from below the floor as well. Would something close to the tank be needed as well? My previous tanks have been drained from the bottom, but this first tank (and future DT) will be drained from side bulkheads. Any pointers here?

And for the emergency drain, AT LEAST 2". I would feel safer with 2.5" to be honest. It's your Emergency drain, you want to over size it

Good point. That's a lot of big holes in the floor though.

I wonder if an emergency drain could be avoided with the float switch that kills the return pump when triggered? I've got a dozen switches I'm dying to use...

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

I wonder if an emergency drain could be avoided with the float switch that kills the return pump when triggered?

yes

I've done this before.

 

[Eastamherstbias]

yes

I've done this before.

I am actually doing this now since I did not have room for an emergency drain along with a couple water sensors.

 

[Spartan]

Think also about noise dampening. You may not like the sound of water rushing down the drain line(s) constantly or transmitted sounds from your return pump. My equipment room is right behind the tank; sound insulation was very worthwhile in ime.

 

[SkiFletch]

Ah the venerable hammerhead . Big pump you can do lots of things with. If you want to avoid an emergency drain with float switches, you CAN, but you need to treat the system as if those switches are ready to fail at any time. Complacency regarding a point of failure like that will only yield a wet floor . I would start by using two switches for high water. Set it up so either an trigger the pump stop. Reason being is what happens if when your drain fails and a snail happens to be on the switch? Wet floor. Same thing with some algae, or just simple salt creep. Redundancy is REQUIRED if you want to use float switches for safety. Furthermore, you should be testing the switches on a regimented basis to make sure they work. Lift them up and make sure the pumps stop. It's when we get lazy that problems raise their head.

Hope I'm not coming off as a complete worry-wart here but I have personally avoided two incidents where I would have had a wet floor because I over-designed my system for drain safety. Both times, snails managed to COMPLETELY clog my main drain. Only because I had an oversized emergency drain was my floor dry.

As for strain relieving the pipes, letting the floor union do the work is OK but if using flex pipe temporarily still puts that fiveish feet of weight on the bulkhead. I would feel more comfortable tying the flex pipe off to the stand somewhere. Will your bulkheads be on the side or in the bottom of the tank? And will the pipes run through the stand, or outside of it?

For when you go permanent with hard-line, I would suggest NOT using the floor union for support. Do you have access to the floor joist space? Or is there a basement ceiling in the way? Ideally you would use one of the post-style strain reliefs in the joist space. You can get them ad HD/Lowes. They are basically a brass ring split into two halves that are screwed together to cinch around the pipe. They have threaded rod that attaches to the ring and a brass foot you screw into the joist. It ties the pipe to the joist. Other strain relief options could be done inside the stand too if you want to go that route. Do you have any pics or designs you can share with us? That might help. otherwise just go to the hardware store and browse the strain relief products there. There are many different types

 

[jeremyjoslin]

As for strain relieving the pipes, letting the floor union do the work is OK but if using flex pipe temporarily still puts that fiveish feet of weight on the bulkhead. I would feel more comfortable tying the flex pipe off to the stand somewhere. Will your bulkheads be on the side or in the bottom of the tank? And will the pipes run through the stand, or outside of it?

For when you go permanent with hard-line, I would suggest NOT using the floor union for support. Do you have access to the floor joist space? Or is there a basement ceiling in the way? Ideally you would use one of the post-style strain reliefs in the joist space. You can get them ad HD/Lowes. They are basically a brass ring split into two halves that are screwed together to cinch around the pipe. They have threaded rod that attaches to the ring and a brass foot you screw into the joist. It ties the pipe to the joist. Other strain relief options could be done inside the stand too if you want to go that route. Do you have any pics or designs you can share with us? That might help. otherwise just go to the hardware store and browse the strain relief products there. There are many different types

Didn't know about this product. Thanks for the tip. I plan to use flex-pvc permanently, but this still sounds like it might be a good solution. Bulkheads will be on the side for both tanks since my 300 will have an external style overflow on the right hand side end.

 

[jeremyjoslin]

This is the temp tank sitting in the footprint of the future tank. I think I'm going to right-justify the new tank so that when I drill through the floor for this temp tank, the holes and plumbing will work for the new tank without any adjustment.

 

[SkiFletch]

So the overflow will be on the right side where that small table is? Are you hiding the plumbing with cabinetry/sophets, or leaving it exposed? When you're doing 2" plus, the flex stuff can get expensive, but it does offer convenience that's for sure.

 

[StashuDave]

Floor

Floor

Ouch, you're going to drill holes in that really nice floor......A trick I've used on a couple of occasions is to cut a big hole in that wall and drop the pipes thru the wall. A lot easier to patch some drywall than replace pieces of that floor. It kinda sounds like you need an actual aquarium professional to come out and give you a consultation....may want to look into that.

 

[GMaquarium]

ouch, you're going to drill holes in that really nice floor......a trick i've used on a couple of occasions is to cut a big hole in that wall and drop the pipes thru the wall. A lot easier to patch some drywall than replace pieces of that floor. It kinda sounds like you need an actual aquarium professional to come out and give you a consultation....may want to look into that.

+1.

 

[Eastamherstbias]

Ouch, you're going to drill holes in that really nice floor......A trick I've used on a couple of occasions is to cut a big hole in that wall and drop the pipes thru the wall. A lot easier to patch some drywall than replace pieces of that floor. It kinda sounds like you need an actual aquarium professional to come out and give you a consultation....may want to look into that.

I agree my last 2 tanks and basement frag tank/sump were built by professionals. No guess work. They had plan and the tanks were built correctly and efficiently.

 

[jeremyjoslin]

So the overflow will be on the right side where that small table is? Are you hiding the plumbing with cabinetry/sophets, or leaving it exposed? When you're doing 2" plus, the flex stuff can get expensive, but it does offer convenience that's for sure.

Correct, overflow on the right side. Plumbing is probably going to be exposed, but hidden by virtue of the right side of the tank facing a corner and the tank being so big. The coffee table and nano slightly visible is temp and will diaper next week.

 

[jeremyjoslin]

Ouch, you're going to drill holes in that really nice floor......A trick I've used on a couple of occasions is to cut a big hole in that wall and drop the pipes thru the wall. A lot easier to patch some drywall than replace pieces of that floor. It kinda sounds like you need an actual aquarium professional to come out and give you a consultation....may want to look into that.

Yeah, it hurst to think about drilling the floor, but going through the floor is so much cleaner than going through a wall (been there and done that). We're here in the house for the long haul, I'm probably going to arrange pipes in such a way that I could install a furnace cold air return register where the holes are (if I ever need to hide the holes).

Professional tank consultant??? I'm interested. I HATE plumbing.... and hate working out the kinks in my plans for tank and stand. How do I find such a person?

 

[Capt_Cully]

#1 You need a consultation from Blurry/Pascal. His perspective, trouble shooting, trouble avoidance, and automation skills, second to none in Syracuse IMO. He's a busy guy, but flattery MIGHT get you somewhere.

#2 IMO/IME relying on technology versus good old physics is not something I'd recommend. Float switches fail. Keep the emergency drain in the blueprints. :thumbsup:

#3 I agree with going through the wall then down. But if you've done that before, we'll call that a push and move to #4...

#4 not sure about plumbing size, but I'd stick with 1.5". The herbie/beananimal works on full siphon and is very very quiet. Huge fan. Siphon is siphon, so I'd presume a hammerhead could push enough flow to keep the siphon going. The curves are one thing, but hammerheads have some serious juice. I think you'll be surprised.great pump.

#5 cutting a doorway into your house just to get a tank into your house......+10 RC/URS cool points!

 

[SkiFletch]

Why not comprimise between the wall/floor and put them through the baseboard/kickboard? Gives you a little re-inforcement, allows a clean/easy hole, and is easily replacable/fixable should you end up not there for the long haul. You would need to strain relief to the rafters below obviously, but it would offer the greatest comprimise.