Upgrading skimmer = lower nutrients = impacting LPS

[makers marc]

Hi y'all,

While you can read about people maintaining ULNS and the impact on LPS, I can't find a journal on people who've made this transition without killing all current LPS/softies.

Long story short:
-75g mixed reef (Ca=420, Mg = 1250, Alk = 7.8, No3= 0.32ppm)
-Past 1 year, all LPS/zoas/softies are growing well. SPS not; 12% wc weekly
-Currently run GFO sucessfully but heavier bioload keeps no3 fluctuating between 0.16ppm-0.64ppm between water changes
-Coral Stocking List: 5xmushrooms and zoas + 20xLPS (Torches, plate, blastos, elegance, bubble, etc)

I am upgrading my skimmer from Seaside Aquatics cs3.5 to Skimz 161 monztere, to really focus on more Acros. Problem is I am worried that this skimmer is way overrated for a 75g and I don't want my current corals to melt away. Any advice on how to transition slowly without killing everything?

 

[toothybugs]

My suggestion for making the transition is to choke off air flow to reduce the skim capacity initially. When I upgraded my skimmer everything just seemed happier after the break-in period. If you leave a touch of nutrients for the LPS and softies you should be okay. I had no problem running 0.2 NO3 and undetectable PO4 for a long while, until I decided to dose some nutrients and screwed the whole thing up My system was doing great at that point with my biggest issue being blowing sand. Everything was growing well. It is coming back now with controlled carbon dosing (not so much to strip the water column clean, but enough to keep NO3 and PO4 in check).

It's a fine line though of "enough" and "too little/ too much" in mixed tanks. As you are I'm sure aware. It's the only reason I am going with the "easy" SPS that I am.

 

[makers marc]

Thanks. I guess thats all i can do

 

[Skim]

Well the other thing you could do is keep what you have as the No3 is what your Softies are enjoying. You did not mention what you have for lighting could that be maybe why the SPS is not growing so well? If it was me I would keep what you are running now and just add GFO and a reactor like TLF 150. You did not say what your PO4 is and that is another large factor in SPS growth. Yes I believe the Skimz 161 would be over kill, if you are really wanting to go with a new skimmer look at the Reef Octopus Classic 110 int would be a better match not to mention save you a few bucks.

Good Luck!

Skim

 

[makers marc]

Skim,

As stated originally, I already run GFO so Phosphates are good to go. My current lights are too weak for Acros and I am upgrading to 2xa360we next week.

My goal is too get my tank where i can grow more SPS but also not kill my softies/LPS. And i know with NO3 that high itll never work. But I like to feed heavily so I need to reduce nitrates and dont have time for anymore then my 13% weekly wc.

 

[slief]

I have a lot of experience with skimmers. While I don't have experience with the Skimz's I did check out the specs on the 161 and I personally think you are making a poor choice. Skimmers need DOC's (dissolved organic compounds) to perform properly... Unless I missed it, you didn't mention you fish stock but even with a heavily stocked 75g display, you may not have enough waste/DOC's to keep that skimmer consistent. What will likely happen is that for the first couple weeks, the skimmer will skim great. Then it will taper off and not produce well at all. If you leave it, it will likely idle along until the waste builds back up and then start producing again until the DOC's are depleted and then idle along again. More often that not, the slow down or lack of skimmate production forces us to run the skimmer really wet to maintain any semblence of consistancy which will really strip the nutrients. You will also likely find yourself right on the ragged edge with a skimmer that becomes sensitive to the point that it overflows frequently. If you leave it really dry and inconsitent, you will likely see your No3 levels going up and down while the skimmer goes in and out of idle mode.

It's my experience that you would be better off with a good quality, properly sized skimmer that consistently works hard and gives you consistent production instead of an oversized skimmer that hardly has to work and is inconsistent as a result. The properly sized skimmer will allow you to adjust it as you need it, be it wet or dry. It won't have a tendency to be inconsistent or overflow if you need or desire to run it wet. The oversized skimmer will need to be run wet all the time to maintain consistency as mentioned above which is counterproductive.

 

[slief]

One last thing.. My tank is heavily stocked with over 60 fish and fed 3x a day. I run a very high end efficicient skimmer that is properly sized and produces skimmate like nobodies business. I also run four 7" filter socks, two refugiums along with a deep sand bed in one of them and over 1000 pounds of live rock in my system. All of which contribute to my nutrient export. I have 0 detectable nitrates & low Po4. Despite that, I have a lot of softies in my tank that I have had for many years. They all grow like weeds as do my hammers and other coral.

Just because you show 0 nitrates doesn't mean there aren't nutrients in your tank for your corals to flousish. The idea is to find a proper balance. If you have a skimmer that is properly sized and can be properly tuned, you will be able to get a real handle on your nutrients by fine tuning the skimmer to your tanks needs. You most certainly won't have that luxury with a skimmer that is grossly oversized. Also, a skimmer isn't the only answer to low nutrients. A system with enough biological surface and a healthy bacterial bed is very important in maintaining low nutrients. Especially if you don't want to do constant large water changes. In my case, I have about 650 gallons total volume and I change out 35 gallons a week.. That is around 20% a month which given my fish load and feeding habits, is relatively low..

Point being.. Just because you put a great skimmer on your tank, doesn't mean you will have low nutrients. Just because you have low detectable nutrients, doesn't mean soft corals and LPS won't do very well. Also, just because you have low nutrients, doesn't mean SPS will do well either.

 

[makers marc]

Thanks Slief. That helps bring alot of things into consideration. First, I currently have a yellow tang, bartletts, royal gramma, yellow striped cardinalfish x 7, pajama cardinal, pair of occellaris, and a green mandarin.

I never knew that if the skimmer didnt have sufficient DOC it wouldnt be consistent then overflow. Interesting. My initial choice was the aquamaxx c01? Skimmer which is more size appropriate because the specs says 90g if heavy bioload. But because i am 100% sure Im upgrading to a larger 8ft long next year, I thought itd be smart to buy a skimmer for that size so I dont waste money... what i regret from starting last year, is I always went with the cheaper option upfront for everything (even if I couldve afforded more) and now Im upgrading skimmer, lights, etc.

Well i haven't received the skimmer yet from BRS but now am going to have to figure out what to do...

 

[slief]

Thanks Slief. That helps bring alot of things into consideration. First, I currently have a yellow tang, bartletts, royal gramma, yellow striped cardinalfish x 7, pajama cardinal, pair of occellaris, and a green mandarin.

I never knew that if the skimmer didnt have sufficient DOC it wouldnt be consistent then overflow. Interesting. My initial choice was the aquamaxx c01? Skimmer which is more size appropriate because the specs says 90g if heavy bioload. But because i am 100% sure Im upgrading to a larger 8ft long next year, I thought itd be smart to buy a skimmer for that size so I dont waste money... what i regret from starting last year, is I always went with the cheaper option upfront for everything (even if I couldve afforded more) and now Im upgrading skimmer, lights, etc.

Well i haven't received the skimmer yet from BRS but now am going to have to figure out what to do...

The reason the overflows occur is not because the skimmer is oversized. It's because in order to get it to produce any skimmate, you will be forced to run it really wet which means raising the water level way up into the skimmers neck. That makes the skimmer very sensitive and prone to overflows. If you don't adjust the water level higher up into the neck, it won't produce.

If it were me, given my experience, I would have stuck with the smaller skimmer and then sold it when it was time to upgrade. From the sounds of it, you have a relatively low load in your tank. You didn't mention how many bartletts are in your tank or the size of your tang but even if you have 20 inch total worth total of fish, that is still a relatively low load for a 75 gallon display. Of course that is also relative to your biological filtration. You obviously need nutrient export both biological (live rock, sand etc) and mechanical (skimmer etc) but I don't consider what you have listed to be a heavy load for your tank.

 

[makers marc]

Ok. Well I have 110lbs of live rock, I siphon my crushed coral substrate evry week with water changes. I use a Jebao wp-25 on w1s1 setting which creates more than enough wave movemement. I blow my rocks with a turkey baster twice a week, change my filer sock on my eshopps rs75 sump twice a week. All that is routine.

I only have 1 male bartletts and my YT is about 3inches. Feeding wise I clip on nori every AM, feed NLS pellets evrry AM and a nice size square of mysis at nigh. I get my nitrates down to 16ppm after changes, when I check my parameters 6 days later its always between 32ppm-64ppm using the red sea pro test kits.


Im very OCD about cleaning the tank, also have 8 hermits, 2 cleaner shrimp, 1 red fire shrimp, and about 10-15 snails. Only have to scrape my glass once every 3-4 days.

What do I do to reduce nitrates so Acros can live, after I get my new lights?

 

[tkeracer619]

Swap the crushed coral for sand. Skim wetter.

I may be wrong but I think your current skimmer should be keeping up. Is it producing anything? How much skimmate do you get in a week?

For your tank to go from 15-60 in a week IMO you have something else going on. That is kind of ridiculous and the numbers would be off the charts unless you were doing 75% water changes each week. Nitrates are in the water so a 50% change results in a 50% drop in nitrates.

How long has this tank been setup? Was the rock dry or live when you started. When you siphon the crushed coral does a lot of junk come out of it?

 

[Quiverfull]

Thinking about getting a sc3.5 for about a 50g new set up that will be only sps. Saw you had one. What did you think about it.

 

[brad65ford]

I have a lot of experience with skimmers. While I don't have experience with the Skimz's I did check out the specs on the 161 and I personally think you are making a poor choice. Skimmers need DOC's (dissolved organic compounds) to perform properly... Unless I missed it, you didn't mention you fish stock but even with a heavily stocked 75g display, you may not have enough waste/DOC's to keep that skimmer consistent. What will likely happen is that for the first couple weeks, the skimmer will skim great. Then it will taper off and not produce well at all. If you leave it, it will likely idle along until the waste builds back up and then start producing again until the DOC's are depleted and then idle along again. More often that not, the slow down or lack of skimmate production forces us to run the skimmer really wet to maintain any semblence of consistancy which will really strip the nutrients. You will also likely find yourself right on the ragged edge with a skimmer that becomes sensitive to the point that it overflows frequently. If you leave it really dry and inconsitent, you will likely see your No3 levels going up and down while the skimmer goes in and out of idle mode.

It's my experience that you would be better off with a good quality, properly sized skimmer that consistently works hard and gives you consistent production instead of an oversized skimmer that hardly has to work and is inconsistent as a result. The properly sized skimmer will allow you to adjust it as you need it, be it wet or dry. It won't have a tendency to be inconsistent or overflow if you need or desire to run it wet. The oversized skimmer will need to be run wet all the time to maintain consistency as mentioned above which is counterproductive.

One last thing.. My tank is heavily stocked with over 60 fish and fed 3x a day. I run a very high end efficicient skimmer that is properly sized and produces skimmate like nobodies business. I also run four 7" filter socks, two refugiums along with a deep sand bed in one of them and over 1000 pounds of live rock in my system. All of which contribute to my nutrient export. I have 0 detectable nitrates & low Po4. Despite that, I have a lot of softies in my tank that I have had for many years. They all grow like weeds as do my hammers and other coral.

Just because you show 0 nitrates doesn't mean there aren't nutrients in your tank for your corals to flousish. The idea is to find a proper balance. If you have a skimmer that is properly sized and can be properly tuned, you will be able to get a real handle on your nutrients by fine tuning the skimmer to your tanks needs. You most certainly won't have that luxury with a skimmer that is grossly oversized. Also, a skimmer isn't the only answer to low nutrients. A system with enough biological surface and a healthy bacterial bed is very important in maintaining low nutrients. Especially if you don't want to do constant large water changes. In my case, I have about 650 gallons total volume and I change out 35 gallons a week.. That is around 20% a month which given my fish load and feeding habits, is relatively low..

Point being.. Just because you put a great skimmer on your tank, doesn't mean you will have low nutrients. Just because you have low detectable nutrients, doesn't mean soft corals and LPS won't do very well. Also, just because you have low nutrients, doesn't mean SPS will do well either.

Probably one of the best posts i've read on RC in a long time. Very nicely worded and explained slief.

 

[slief]

Probably one of the best posts i've read on RC in a long time. Very nicely worded and explained slief.

:beer:

 

[NotYoNano]

In my tank I've found that turning the skimmer off for 6 hours a day sure does help a lot. Flies in the face of the "30% max efficiency" thing, but I also have seen the effects of too clean of tanks. I leave the skimmer off for 8 hours, but have noticed sps doesn't care and lps/softies don't deflate so much in general.

As long as your parameters are within acceptable ranges I find it preferred because we can never truly match the available nutrients in the ocean, so anything else is "underfed".