Using AGA Megaflow kit with emergency drain?

[MikesReef83]

I have a 90 gallon RR AGA with the megaflow kit. With me having such a large sump in the basement (150g rubbermaid) I would hate for something to clog the megaflow drain and all that water flood my living room. With that being said, Could I use the 3/4" return bulkhead as my dry back up drain along with the 1' durso stand pipe drain?

I looked into the Herbie route but with my center offset overflow against the wall and having the valve under the stand it would be a pain to adjust and see the water level in the overflow chamber.

 

[MikesReef83]

No one has done this??

 

[uncleof6]

Doubt it, a megaflow is not worth much in terms of drain systems. Most considering emergency drains go ahead and finish the job by converting to a siphon system. I have not run across a tank I could not convert to a siphon system yet. Just have to think about it for a while.

 

[MikesReef83]

A siphon system you mean like a Herbie setup?

 

[MikesReef83]

Did more reading. Some say use the 3/4" as the full siphon with the gate valve and the 1" as the emergency drain having water slowly draining.

And other are saying vise versa. Use 1" as main siphon and so on. I will be using a gen x mak 4 pump with 8 ft of head which will be feeding my two reactors and fuge. How should I go about this?

 

[vpaul79]

I just did this myself to a AGA 92 Corner with a megaflow. I used the 3/4" as a full siphon and the 1" as slow drain. I then come up and over for the return. Works great and is very quiet as you'd expect. Here's a grainy image. I do use an Eheim 1262 as the return since that many turns do reduce flow rate, but the flow rate is still very good.

 

[uncleof6]

Did more reading. Some say use the 3/4" as the full siphon with the gate valve and the 1" as the emergency drain having water slowly draining.

And other are saying vise versa. Use 1" as main siphon and so on. I will be using a gen x mak 4 pump with 8 ft of head which will be feeding my two reactors and fuge. How should I go about this?

This is a tough one, as it is a "convoluted" debate starter. You have read some things, but not what should have been read: that being the first post from 2004. Granted, the original post was not well written, and there was no documentation presented, to speak of, by page 12 or 13 the thread had turned into a running gun battle between some rather uninformed folks and a couple with the background to understand the dynamics of drain systems, and overall system design—that does not present significant risk for equipment/home damage and loss of life in the tank, when running a restricted drain line at the borderline of its capacity.

Without getting too deep into it, the first comment is wrong. The design calls for a "restricted drainline" (a siphon) and a DRY emergency, with the dry emergency being "empty" (no water in it) under normal running conditions, and only flowing water in the case of a "problem" with the main drain line. These "problems" could be due to a myraid of variables, such as barometric pressure, variations in pump output, a snail stuck in the line, a fish, or increased friction loss due to algea/slime/sponge/(what have you) growth inside the drain line.

The herbie, as it has been called, is not inherently stable, and not able to cope well with barometric pressure changes, and variations in pump output which can occur daily sometimes more, sometimes less often. Friction loss changes being more of an "over time" thing. Within a month, due to this issue, the design was convoluted by short circuiting the fail safety feature of the DRY emergency, with the "trickle" down the dry emergency. Of course logic tells us that this raises the failure probability of the dry emergency to that of the siphon. The bottom line is never run a restricted drain line, of which the capacity cannot rise (due to the restriction) without a dry emergency backup, flowing water only if there is a problem with the main siphon.

The trickle of flow in the dry emergency is certainly a popular way to run this system, after all it is the first thing you mentioned. It is perhaps "religiously" defended. But don't confuse popular—with good design. Popular is based (to make a loose quote) on convenience, cost, appearance and much of the time, a lack of knowledge of a better way, and in some cases the RIGHT way to do something. Good design takes a distant back seat. Of course, a drain system can be run any way someone wants to run it.

I cannot say the second part is wrong, becasue it isn't. Herbie's implementation used the 1" bulkhead for the siphon, and the 3/4" bulkhead (with 1" pipe) as the backup. A better implementation, has the 3/4" bulkhead as the siphon (lower flow capacity) and the 1" bulkhead as the DRY emergency backup.(higher flow capacity.)

 

[MikesReef83]

This is a tough one, as it is a "convoluted" debate starter. You have read some things, but not what should have been read: that being the first post from 2004. Granted, the original post was not well written, and there was no documentation presented, to speak of, by page 12 or 13 the thread had turned into a running gun battle between some rather uninformed folks and a couple with the background to understand the dynamics of drain systems, and overall system design—that does not present significant risk for equipment/home damage and loss of life in the tank, when running a restricted drain line at the borderline of its capacity.

Without getting too deep into it, the first comment is wrong. The design calls for a "restricted drainline" (a siphon) and a DRY emergency, with the dry emergency being "empty" (no water in it) under normal running conditions, and only flowing water in the case of a "problem" with the main drain line. These "problems" could be due to a myraid of variables, such as barometric pressure, variations in pump output, a snail stuck in the line, a fish, or increased friction loss due to algea/slime/sponge/(what have you) growth inside the drain line.

The herbie, as it has been called, is not inherently stable, and not able to cope well with barometric pressure changes, and variations in pump output which can occur daily sometimes more, sometimes less often. Friction loss changes being more of an "over time" thing. Within a month, due to this issue, the design was convoluted by short circuiting the fail safety feature of the DRY emergency, with the "trickle" down the dry emergency. Of course logic tells us that this raises the failure probability of the dry emergency to that of the siphon. The bottom line is never run a restricted drain line, of which the capacity cannot rise (due to the restriction) without a dry emergency backup, flowing water only if there is a problem with the main siphon.

The trickle of flow in the dry emergency is certainly a popular way to run this system, after all it is the first thing you mentioned. It is perhaps "religiously" defended. But don't confuse popular—with good design. Popular is based (to make a loose quote) on convenience, cost, appearance and much of the time, a lack of knowledge of a better way, and in some cases the RIGHT way to do something. Good design takes a distant back seat. Of course, a drain system can be run any way someone wants to run it.

I cannot say the second part is wrong, becasue it isn't. Herbie's implementation used the 1" bulkhead for the siphon, and the 3/4" bulkhead (with 1" pipe) as the backup. A better implementation, has the 3/4" bulkhead as the siphon (lower flow capacity) and the 1" bulkhead as the DRY emergency backup.(higher flow capacity.)

Thanks for the info. So what I have read so far and understand is that the herbie is not a completely stable overflow system due to the fluctuation of the flow from the return pump changing. I'm assuming compared to the Megaflow durso stand pipes that came with my aga 90 it would be safer and wiser to go the Herbie route. So is it a safe plan to go ahead and use the 3/4' as the full siphon with a 1' pipe, and the 1' drain as the back up?(with water slowly trickling inside)

I'm not really familiar with a lot of members on here so it's hard to know if you are reading someone's opinion on something or reading the "factual information" way it should be. I'm wanting to set this tank up for long term with no room for error so I am trying to find the most accurate, correct information I can on this.

 

[patsfan1130]

Uncle is one of the resident experts here on drains, overflows and the like. I have learned more from him over the last 10 years than anyone else here. Take any advise he offers..

 

[MikesReef83]

Uncle is one of the resident experts here on drains, overflows and the like. I have learned more from him over the last 10 years than anyone else here. Take any advise he offers..

Thanks. It seems that way. I was reading some other articles he had posted and was impressed and well informed.
The only thing I don't like reading is how some have to adjust the valve on the herbie siphon drain monthly because of the water in the overflow box fluctuating. Which seems like its more work than running a Mega Flow Durso like my tank came with.

I just want someone tell me what the best option for me to do since I have a 3/4' hole and 1' hole on my RR 90. with having a 150 sump I would hate for that much water to be pumped on my floor if the durso gets clogged. That's why i'm considering the Herbie. Its hard to get straight answers lol

 

[uncleof6]

Thanks. It seems that way. I was reading some other articles he had posted and was impressed and well informed.
The only thing I don't like reading is how some have to adjust the valve on the herbie siphon drain monthly because of the water in the overflow box fluctuating. Which seems like its more work than running a Mega Flow Durso like my tank came with.

I just want someone tell me what the best option for me to do since I have a 3/4' hole and 1' hole on my RR 90. with having a 150 sump I would hate for that much water to be pumped on my floor if the durso gets clogged. That's why i'm considering the Herbie. Its hard to get straight answers lol

The bottom line is despite some inherent instability, the herbie is going to be more stable and reliable over a wider range of flow rates, than a durso (or similar open channel drain system.) The better system stability wise, is bean's system, however it is not well suited to corner overflows.

Under the right conditions, a standard durso can be stable, and quiet as well. However the flow rates are pretty low, and the device was not really designed for marine system flow rates. It did solve two issues: the water fall into the overflow box, and the fear of running a restricted drain line. Since you should be running at or above 900 gph, a durso is pretty much out of the question.

 

[MikesReef83]

The bottom line is despite some inherent instability, the herbie is going to be more stable and reliable over a wider range of flow rates, than a durso (or similar open channel drain system.) The better system stability wise, is bean's system, however it is not well suited to corner overflows.

Under the right conditions, a standard durso can be stable, and quiet as well. However the flow rates are pretty low, and the device was not really designed for marine system flow rates. It did solve two issues: the water fall into the overflow box, and the fear of running a restricted drain line. Since you should be running at or above 900 gph, a durso is pretty much out of the question.

Thank you very much for the useful info. I'm going to pull the durso out and and get to plumbing the herbie then. I've had just nanos in the past and this is my first "larger" tank with an overflow. When I first purchased this tank used I was just learning of the durso overflow and only knew of the eshopps overflow boxes and how risky they were. I was not aware of the herbie and bean setups. But NOW if I was aware of the bean animal overflow I would have not purchased this tank that is "reef ready" and had a custom drilled tank. I don't have this tank filled yet. Just sand and rock in it. I ill keep this tank and continue converting it to the herbie overflow. I know ill be just as happy having a back up drain so I can sleep at night.

So just to recap, use 3/4" has main siphon and have it approx. 5-6" below the 1' dry emergency. The 1" dry emergency is to be level with the grate on the overflow without any trickle hence the name "dry emergency". Put a high quality GATE valve on the 3/4' full siphon line (preferably right below the bulk head).

The only thing left I have to worry about is having my return line being Teed off to feed my reactors and fuge. OR should I just run a spare mag 9.5 in my 150g sump to feed all the extra and have the return run straight up.

 

[vpaul79]

I would have the 1" trickle drain about 2" below the teeth of the overflow. You want some agitation in the overflow.

 

[MikesReef83]

I would have the 1" trickle drain about 2" below the teeth of the overflow. You want some agitation in the overflow.

To my understanding from what I have read, it was not a good idea to run a trickle in the emergency drain. It defeats the purpose of a "dry emergency". I can run the 1" emergency right below the teeth of the overflow and adjust the water depth inside so it's right below the emergency.
As far as agitation goes, I might be getting plenty of that from my 50g fuge draining back to my 150g sump.

 

[vpaul79]

From my understanding the original design of the herbie was to have a dry emergency but with the number of factors that affect the siphon it is very hard to maintain those conditions and you're water level in the overflow will either fall or elevate. If it falls then you'll lose the full siphon and get the gurgling of a durso. Therefore you need to increase the return flow ever so more than the main siphon to maintain a stable water level in the overflow and use the secondary as trickle. The trickle drain should remain unrestricted as in no valve or fully open if one is installed in case the main siphon clogs and the secondary can handle the water volume. Some people drain the secondary into another chamber in the sump so they can physically see when there is a problem with the main drain.

If the Herbie could be setup without needing a trickle drain then essentially the beananimal style drain would be obsolete.

 

[uncleof6]

To my understanding from what I have read, it was not a good idea to run a trickle in the emergency drain. It defeats the purpose of a "dry emergency". I can run the 1" emergency right below the teeth of the overflow and adjust the water depth inside so it's right below the emergency.
As far as agitation goes, I might be getting plenty of that from my 50g fuge draining back to my 150g sump.

Water running into the overflow, provides all the agitation that might be required. Good call on the "dry emergency." I would set the dry emergency around an inch below the top of the tank, without regard to the overflow. Set the water level in the overflow around an inch below the bottom of the teeth. This will prevent water from flowing in the dry emergency due to minor variations in flow rate. Teeth complicate the overflow, and create some issues on their own, so for future reference, use an overflow without teeth. (Reef Ready is what it is.)

As far as the Mag 9.5, are you sure you want to run this pump? This pump requires 1.5" pipe on the outlet, if you want to get any flow out of it. this is clearly stated in the instructions. Basically it is a poorly engineered pump (along with the others.) There are far better pumps more suited to our needs than these antiquated pond pumps. RLSS waveline to name just one, run DC motors and are adjustable.

 

[MikesReef83]

Water running into the overflow, provides all the agitation that might be required. Good call on the "dry emergency." I would set the dry emergency around an inch below the top of the tank, without regard to the overflow. Set the water level in the overflow around an inch below the bottom of the teeth. This will prevent water from flowing in the dry emergency due to minor variations in flow rate. Teeth complicate the overflow, and create some issues on their own, so for future reference, use an overflow without teeth. (Reef Ready is what it is.)

As far as the Mag 9.5, are you sure you want to run this pump? This pump requires 1.5" pipe on the outlet, if you want to get any flow out of it. this is clearly stated in the instructions. Basically it is a poorly engineered pump (along with the others.) There are far better pumps more suited to our needs than these antiquated pond pumps. RLSS waveline to name just one, run DC motors and are adjustable.

I'm sorry I didn't clerify this. I am using a Gen-X PCX40 External Pump plumbed to my 150 rubbermaid sump as my return. I was going to tee off the return coming from the Gen-X to feed my reactors and fuge, but I read that there could be more fuctuation in flow if I do this. So I was asking if it would be a better idea if I just run the Gen-X straight to the tank without it being teed off and use a mag 9.5 inside my sump to feed my reactors and fuge?

 

[uncleof6]

From my understanding the original design of the herbie was to have a dry emergency but with the number of factors that affect the siphon it is very hard to maintain those conditions and you're water level in the overflow will either fall or elevate. If it falls then you'll lose the full siphon and get the gurgling of a durso. Therefore you need to increase the return flow ever so more than the main siphon to maintain a stable water level in the overflow and use the secondary as trickle. The trickle drain should remain unrestricted as in no valve or fully open if one is installed in case the main siphon clogs and the secondary can handle the water volume. Some people drain the secondary into another chamber in the sump so they can physically see when there is a problem with the main drain.

If the Herbie could be setup without needing a trickle drain then essentially the beananimal style drain would be obsolete.

Using the "dry" emergency as you have described, is not a sound or safe design. There is no justification for short circuiting the fail safe feature of the Herbie design. If your system is varying that much, there are issues in other parts of the system. . This has been argued and debated to the point of being downright silly. It is circular, and never gets anywhere. I ran this system for a long time prior to bean's design being published and BEFORE herbie made his first post concerning his modification. When properly set up (very rare it seems) the variation is very slight, and should not be much concern, unless there is a problem with a piece of equipment in the system. Unfortunately, most folks do not really understand any of this, so....

Your assesment that the bean style drain would be obsolete if herbie could be set up without a trickle drain is simply nonsense. For non mechanical issues, the siphon will vary the flow rate with the change in head height
, even when restircted, whether the flow into the tank increases or decreases. Something that it seems very few actually understand. The "trickle" concept did not really grab hold till AFTER bean's system was published, and the "herbie" has oft been referred to as a "modified bean" which is also absurd. The bean makes the herbie obsolete as it is self adjusting, over a far wider range of flow rates/head heights, E.G. a very wide bandwidth.

It has always been considered UNSAFE to run a restricted drain line with out a dry emergency backup as fail safe, which is why folks were afraid of it to begin with. Hence from more informed posters: All three pipes are required with bean's system, and the DRY emergency is required with the herbie. However, you can run the system anyway you choose, after all I don't have to pay the bills....after the flood.

 

[MikesReef83]

Sorry for all these "noob" questions but If I use the 3/4" as my main siphon could I up it to a 1" pipe from the 3/4" bulkhead?

Also in regards to my last question, not sure if you cought it Jim, but if it were you, would you run the Gen-X PCX40 straight up without any tees off the return and use the mag 9 for the reactor and fuge or would it be ok to tee off the return. Wasn't sure if this would cause more fluctuation in flow to the tank.

Thank a bunch for all your help so far!!

 

[uncleof6]

Sorry for all these "noob" questions but If I use the 3/4" as my main siphon could I up it to a 1" pipe from the 3/4" bulkhead?

Also in regards to my last question, not sure if you cought it Jim, but if it were you, would you run the Gen-X PCX40 straight up without any tees off the return and use the mag 9 for the reactor and fuge or would it be ok to tee off the return. Wasn't sure if this would cause more fluctuation in flow to the tank.

Thank a bunch for all your help so far!!

Would take some flow calcs to determine if the gen x will have enough poop left after it gets up to the tank. Depends on pipe size, number of fittings etc. Generally these small pumps don't do too well coming up from a basement, but some flow calcs (friction loss) would tell. As far as the mag 9.5 goes, they are noisy, hot, and not very good, but there is nothing wrong with running two pumps one for the tank, and one for the accessories. I do this quite often, for chillers in particular.

1" pipe above and below the bulkhead would be to your advantage. The flow rate is hard limited to the bulkhead size, and the length of the drop. (along with ambient pressure, density, drag coefficient of the pipe blah blah) The pipe size determines how close to that theoretical limit you can get. The larger the pipe, the lower the friction loss, hence better drain performance.