Using refugium as a zooplankton producer?
- Thread starter lunarlanderboy
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graveyardworm
Premium Member
Regular feeding of phyto would certainly help your brine shrimp to reach adult hood, and many of your tanks other tiny inhabitants would enjoy it as well. Currently I have a 100 gal tank setup with a DSB some LR and a few soft corals with no other predation. The amount of things crawling on the sand bed and glass both day and night is incredible. I'm sure these critters are spreading throughout the rest of my system.
If you are trying to setup an automatic feeder system with phyto, has anybody played with one of these things, and if so, how did it work for you?
The thing is called a geosapper:
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-07/nftt/index.php
Basically a multi-chamber tube with miniature carlson surge devices to feed from one chamber to the next.
I would envision using some drip feed pump from either the main display tank overflow area or even using wet skimmate from a skimmer to be fed through a small UV sterilizer to kill anything and begin the breakdown of stuff to feed into the top of the layer of the geosapper for phytoplankton.
Assuming the UV sterilizer can kill off all the bacteria/algae in the feed, you should be able to maintain a fairly good continuous production of phyto/rotifers/brine shrimp or whatever to feed back into either the refugium as source food for amphipods/copepods, or to the display tank for coral food.
This would be one step closer to a closed system that recycles nutrients and automates food production.
If it works and you can tune all the drip rates and size it, it would have to be better than having to do batch phytos in 2 litre bottles.
Or you could supplement with your batch phyto and this would be good for weekend feedings etc so you could go away for a day or two without having to worry about feeding.
The thing is called a geosapper:
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-07/nftt/index.php
Basically a multi-chamber tube with miniature carlson surge devices to feed from one chamber to the next.
I would envision using some drip feed pump from either the main display tank overflow area or even using wet skimmate from a skimmer to be fed through a small UV sterilizer to kill anything and begin the breakdown of stuff to feed into the top of the layer of the geosapper for phytoplankton.
Assuming the UV sterilizer can kill off all the bacteria/algae in the feed, you should be able to maintain a fairly good continuous production of phyto/rotifers/brine shrimp or whatever to feed back into either the refugium as source food for amphipods/copepods, or to the display tank for coral food.
This would be one step closer to a closed system that recycles nutrients and automates food production.
If it works and you can tune all the drip rates and size it, it would have to be better than having to do batch phytos in 2 litre bottles.
Or you could supplement with your batch phyto and this would be good for weekend feedings etc so you could go away for a day or two without having to worry about feeding.
I would not use skimmate for anything. Even after UV sterilization it would not be good to recycle into the tank. Water from the overflow would work well. This is basically skimmate but not as concentrated. I wonder how well a system like this would work? If you wanted to keep horses it would be well worth the effort. In fact anyone who wanted to leave for the weekend would appreciate something like this (including myself) as dry flake food gets old for fish.
Anyone tried something like this (or would like to try something like this?)
Anyone tried something like this (or would like to try something like this?)
The interesting thing here is that "skimmate" isn't necessarily "bad stuff", we just have more of the "stuff" in our tanks than we want. It might be excellent food for pod and/or Phyto production as Doug is suggesting.
I would not want it to be in a direct loop back into the tank, and I'm not sure what the intent of UV processing is, but Doug still may have a valid thought here.
> Barry
I would not want it to be in a direct loop back into the tank, and I'm not sure what the intent of UV processing is, but Doug still may have a valid thought here.
> Barry
The UV processing is to kill any free floating algal cells/cyanobacteria that would foul the pure strain of phyto you are culturing in the top section of the geosapper. I would want to grow specific cultures of phyto that are supposedly better for their nutritional qualities.
I also thought I read somewhere that the UV will also help to begin the breakdown process of proteins etc so they will be able to be utilized quicker by the phyto, but I have no idea if that is true.
As for using skimmate, I don't think I would use all of the skimmate, but would expect that the skimmate would be good alga fertilizer once broken down some. Afterall, isn't the point in getting the stuff skimmed out to prevent the proteins breaking down into nitrates and phosphates etc? Aren't these good alga food? Also, using the skimmate was to ensure a concentrated food source for the alga. Feeding the food for alga at a slower rate allows more time for the alga and the other food sources in the geosapper to reproduce and replace the populations lost from the carlson surges back to the tank.
Skimmate may be too concentrated though, but the overflow may not be concentrated enough, which is why I was thinking of wet skimmate.
It would all depend on the sizing of the geosapper, what the recovery rates were for the populations in the different chambers are. I would want the feed rate of water into the sapper to cause the surges when the population densitity recovers, this way you have a "constant" average population for a steady state operation. Balancing the feed rate with the concentration of food sources in the feed water is the tuning that will need to be done to match this with the surge rate/sizing of the sapper.
Also, you need to make sure you are not feeding too much water in as the feed water needs to sit in the UV sterilizer long enough to kill off anything living to prevent it from fouling your cultures.
I also thought I read somewhere that the UV will also help to begin the breakdown process of proteins etc so they will be able to be utilized quicker by the phyto, but I have no idea if that is true.
As for using skimmate, I don't think I would use all of the skimmate, but would expect that the skimmate would be good alga fertilizer once broken down some. Afterall, isn't the point in getting the stuff skimmed out to prevent the proteins breaking down into nitrates and phosphates etc? Aren't these good alga food? Also, using the skimmate was to ensure a concentrated food source for the alga. Feeding the food for alga at a slower rate allows more time for the alga and the other food sources in the geosapper to reproduce and replace the populations lost from the carlson surges back to the tank.
Skimmate may be too concentrated though, but the overflow may not be concentrated enough, which is why I was thinking of wet skimmate.
It would all depend on the sizing of the geosapper, what the recovery rates were for the populations in the different chambers are. I would want the feed rate of water into the sapper to cause the surges when the population densitity recovers, this way you have a "constant" average population for a steady state operation. Balancing the feed rate with the concentration of food sources in the feed water is the tuning that will need to be done to match this with the surge rate/sizing of the sapper.
Also, you need to make sure you are not feeding too much water in as the feed water needs to sit in the UV sterilizer long enough to kill off anything living to prevent it from fouling your cultures.
I think Ron Shimek did an analysis on skimmate content awhile back. If I remember correctly it contained some rather unpleasant stuff, heavy metals and such. My memory's not the best anymore so this could be all wrong of course, but it's probably worth checking out before you start recycling the stuff through your tank. You may end up with a more accurate replication of the real environment than you really want...
OK, here's the article. I didn't have a chance to read it again but it may be of interest: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-12/rs/feature/index.php
graveyardworm
Premium Member
I just read through Dr Ron's article and it seems that recycling skimmate for phyto production is probably not a good thing, but a very good idea just the same. When I originally thought out my system I wanted to have a continuous phyto drip, and now that I'm set up my thoughts are turning back to that idea. After reading through some Anthony Calfo threads and other research, and attempting to grow phyto myself it seems that the best way would be to purchase a product like DT's, and to have a small fridge set up with a drip tank in it. Then just run a drip line through drill hole in the fridge to the sump or whatever tank is convenient. Of course this could also be done with home grown phyto. This would also be a convenient place to keep beverages for tank viewing time.
graveyardworm
Premium Member
I wasnt referring to DT's as a starter culture just an easy way to provide phyto in your tank. The drip feed would need to filled with DT's as it gets used.
Thanks to PRC for posting that article.
I had actually read through that one a while ago, but it is good as a reference since it compares different export methods.
I still think recycling a wet skimmate is not a bad thing. Granted, Dr. Ron's testing showed heavy metals are also exported by skimming along with what I will refer to as algae fertilizer in the organics, but the heavy metals have to be added to the tank to be there in the first place to the point where they are accumulating and need to be exported.
So where would the heavy metals be coming from? What are the sources for heavy metals?
1) makeup water
should not be a concern if using ro/di water
2) salt mix
since you should only be adding salt mix when you are replacing salt water as a water change, you really should not see heavy metals accumulate past a certain point since you won't really exceed the starting concentration of your freshly mixed salt water
3) additives/medicines etc
I don't plan on using any additives really, and medicine will be something done in quarantine, but hopefully if I quarantine before introducing into the main tank, I won't have to deal with any diseases in the main display.
4) calcium reactor
People using calcium reactors or epsom salts are introducing heavy metal contaminants along with the calcium carbonate
5) food
I can't think of anything else in normal use where heavy metals will end up in a reef tank, if I am missing something obvious let me know.
Ok, since I don't know if I want to use a calcium reactor, or if I will even need one if I am not planning on a lot of stony corals, this leaves my source of accumulating heavy metals as contaminants in feed.
If I can recycle the tank "wastes" and process it through phyto culturing tanks/rotifers/mysids etc, this will cut down the need to add food, which will cut out the main source of heavy metals.
Until the tank matures and I establish populations of all the bacteria and whatever pods etc, I will have to supplemental feed, so there is going to be some heavy metals. I may have to supplemental feed even with the phyto cultures etc depending on how complete of a food web I can simulate since I may not be able to keep up with producing the cultured food.
Not sure about DT's, but Reed Mariculture sells something called Phyto-feast that is supposed to be a concentrated mix of live algae. They also sell super concentrated phyto types that can be used as bulk feed, but they are not alive so can't be used as starter cultures. They also have some information about differences of nutritional profiles of some of the pure algae concentrates they sell which might be good as a reference.
www.reedmariculture.com
Florida aqua farms also offers live cultures of rotifers and some macroalgaes, and most important for anyone setting up pure phyto cultures, they also offer starter cultures of different microalgaes.
www.florida-aqua-farms.com
I'm not endorsing either of these companies as I have not yet purchased anything from them so can not speak from first hand experience, but in case anybody is looking for sources, here were two that I had found.
Anybody out there know of any testing of food sources and their concentrations of different toxins that we might want to minimize introducing into an aquarium?
As for using a drilled refrigerator for holding your premade phyto for dripping, if you are going to drill the refrigerator once for that drip line, drill it again and also make it act as a chiller for your aquarium if you need one. Dorm fridges work well for this, but if you have a full size and the room... just one more hole and you can plumb a tap in the front for a full size keg You can use the freezer portion for any frozen food for your aquarium, and for making phyto popsicles if you are doing batch cultures of micro algae so that you always have a cube to throw in the sump.
Cheers,
Doug
I had actually read through that one a while ago, but it is good as a reference since it compares different export methods.
I still think recycling a wet skimmate is not a bad thing. Granted, Dr. Ron's testing showed heavy metals are also exported by skimming along with what I will refer to as algae fertilizer in the organics, but the heavy metals have to be added to the tank to be there in the first place to the point where they are accumulating and need to be exported.
So where would the heavy metals be coming from? What are the sources for heavy metals?
1) makeup water
should not be a concern if using ro/di water
2) salt mix
since you should only be adding salt mix when you are replacing salt water as a water change, you really should not see heavy metals accumulate past a certain point since you won't really exceed the starting concentration of your freshly mixed salt water
3) additives/medicines etc
I don't plan on using any additives really, and medicine will be something done in quarantine, but hopefully if I quarantine before introducing into the main tank, I won't have to deal with any diseases in the main display.
4) calcium reactor
People using calcium reactors or epsom salts are introducing heavy metal contaminants along with the calcium carbonate
5) food
I can't think of anything else in normal use where heavy metals will end up in a reef tank, if I am missing something obvious let me know.
Ok, since I don't know if I want to use a calcium reactor, or if I will even need one if I am not planning on a lot of stony corals, this leaves my source of accumulating heavy metals as contaminants in feed.
If I can recycle the tank "wastes" and process it through phyto culturing tanks/rotifers/mysids etc, this will cut down the need to add food, which will cut out the main source of heavy metals.
Until the tank matures and I establish populations of all the bacteria and whatever pods etc, I will have to supplemental feed, so there is going to be some heavy metals. I may have to supplemental feed even with the phyto cultures etc depending on how complete of a food web I can simulate since I may not be able to keep up with producing the cultured food.
Not sure about DT's, but Reed Mariculture sells something called Phyto-feast that is supposed to be a concentrated mix of live algae. They also sell super concentrated phyto types that can be used as bulk feed, but they are not alive so can't be used as starter cultures. They also have some information about differences of nutritional profiles of some of the pure algae concentrates they sell which might be good as a reference.
www.reedmariculture.com
Florida aqua farms also offers live cultures of rotifers and some macroalgaes, and most important for anyone setting up pure phyto cultures, they also offer starter cultures of different microalgaes.
www.florida-aqua-farms.com
I'm not endorsing either of these companies as I have not yet purchased anything from them so can not speak from first hand experience, but in case anybody is looking for sources, here were two that I had found.
Anybody out there know of any testing of food sources and their concentrations of different toxins that we might want to minimize introducing into an aquarium?
As for using a drilled refrigerator for holding your premade phyto for dripping, if you are going to drill the refrigerator once for that drip line, drill it again and also make it act as a chiller for your aquarium if you need one. Dorm fridges work well for this, but if you have a full size and the room... just one more hole and you can plumb a tap in the front for a full size keg
You can use the freezer portion for any frozen food for your aquarium, and for making phyto popsicles if you are doing batch cultures of micro algae so that you always have a cube to throw in the sump.Cheers,
Doug
Would having 2 skimmers daisy-chained (i.e. in a row) work? What if you used your normal big skimmer to remove the metals and other nasties and use a second cheap skimmer (DIY or some cheap clone) to produce food for the phyto. This would allow you to export most of metals and nasties and still provide a constant supply of food to the phyto. If you had a second skimmer you would probably want to use less of a wet skimmate because the food would be less concentrated after being skimmed once. This should also keep the phyto container more "sterile" so you wouldn't have to break down the system for cleaning and maintenance as often.
What do you guys think?
What do you guys think?
graveyardworm
Premium Member
It seems we are way overthinking what to feed phyto or how to get it done continuously. Appropriate off the shelf foods are easy to come by.
Hi Graveyardworm,
It probably is easier to just buy premade foods, but in the end is it more cost effective?
Pay for premade food -> skim the water clean -> throw skimmate out -> dope micronutrients/good chemicals also skimmed out
or
Skim water to concentrate wastes -> feed to continuous phyto culture -> rotifer culture -> mysid culture
Now granted, the second method you need to get starter cultures, and possibly have to pay extra electric for UV sterilizer and lighting the phyto culture, but you get the benefit of live food in the tank, which is something I would want for mandarins and sea horses. And you don't have the ongoing costs of feed purchases.
Now you could still culture your own live foods with bulk phyto feeds, and if that is more cost effective, that may be the way to go, but I still see this as being more introduction into the system that you will just have to skim out/export in the end. You are doing a bulk addition to the system with each feed.
I still think that these prepared feeds are the main source of heavy metals in an aquarium tank as far as the accumulation goes, which is a reason I would like to maintain a continous closed system if possible and minimize any additions in the form of external feeds.
Now maybe bulk phyto concentrates are clean, and it is only prepared frozen meaty food that I should be concerned with. This is why I would really like to see comparison of the different food sources that reefers use in their aquariums to see what if any food sources should be avoided or minimized as a source of toxic chemical contamination.
Cheers,
Doug
It probably is easier to just buy premade foods, but in the end is it more cost effective?
Pay for premade food -> skim the water clean -> throw skimmate out -> dope micronutrients/good chemicals also skimmed out
or
Skim water to concentrate wastes -> feed to continuous phyto culture -> rotifer culture -> mysid culture
Now granted, the second method you need to get starter cultures, and possibly have to pay extra electric for UV sterilizer and lighting the phyto culture, but you get the benefit of live food in the tank, which is something I would want for mandarins and sea horses. And you don't have the ongoing costs of feed purchases.
Now you could still culture your own live foods with bulk phyto feeds, and if that is more cost effective, that may be the way to go, but I still see this as being more introduction into the system that you will just have to skim out/export in the end. You are doing a bulk addition to the system with each feed.
I still think that these prepared feeds are the main source of heavy metals in an aquarium tank as far as the accumulation goes, which is a reason I would like to maintain a continous closed system if possible and minimize any additions in the form of external feeds.
Now maybe bulk phyto concentrates are clean, and it is only prepared frozen meaty food that I should be concerned with. This is why I would really like to see comparison of the different food sources that reefers use in their aquariums to see what if any food sources should be avoided or minimized as a source of toxic chemical contamination.
Cheers,
Doug
I agree with ddoering there are off the shelf products available but if you can create a psuedo-automated way of making life food that is in constant supply wouldn't that create a better environment for your tank? Plus for those who like to have a life (i.e. leave at night, for the weekend, or even the week) we can feel better knowing our fish aren't just getting flake food or worst overfed by a pitiful fish watcher that thinks our fish are starving ;o)
just my $0.01 (after taxes ;o)~
just my $0.01 (after taxes ;o)~
........
Travis L. Stevens
New member
3rotorFD, you got PM
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