Vermetid Snail ELIMINATION - In tank Treatments

[pisanoal]

Curious if there has been any progress or further thoughts or findings in this research thread.

I had to pause it to set up a longer term qt tank. I'm setting it back up now and getting ready to start testing. I've got a few more ideas to try too

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[Nemeziz_za]

I had to pause it to set up a longer term qt tank. I'm setting it back up now and getting ready to start testing. I've got a few more ideas to try too

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk

Great to hear, I'm subscribed to your thread and thank you for your perseverance.

 

[jda]

This is completely anecdotal, but I inherited a longnose butterfly about a month ago. While it cannot eat them, it seems to irritate them enough that I have not seen as many new ones around - I usually cut them in the tank with some bone cutters and then the fish clean them up. This could mean nothing and this is just a down-cycle.

FWIW - I have some, but never enough to be really mad about them.

 

[JDuong916]

I read somewhere about someone using coral snow. I guess it makes the water clear and the verms cant eat and die. I am 99% sure it probably doesn't work, but I read it somewhere.

I'm at the exact same point as you, every thing settled and growing including billions of vermetids.

 

[ReefKeeper64]

If you don’t come up with a better solution, then here is a thought.

Remove your corals to a holding tank and dose the display tank with a standard dose of chloroquine phosphate. Just one dose will wipe out your entire snail population. I know because I treated a case of ich this way before. Snails went quick. It took a few weeks after before I could keep snails again. I deplore vermetid snails. Their webs and cones are unsightly. If I ever get a case of these, I won’t hesitate one bit to nuke them this way. The tank will recover in short order and the corals will make it in a holding tank for a few weeks.

 

[Jose Mayo]

There is a product, used in organic agriculture to control slugs and snails, that could be efficient to control vermetides: Ferric phosphate.

The trademark of the product is Ferramol® Organic, but for the purpose of experimentation I believe that the use of saturated GFO may be attempted by the aquarist. Ideally, the saturated GFO should be dry and ground by dosing the product on the display when the vermetides are with their nets extended to ensure they can ingest it, and then wait for the results.

There is no defined dose to use for this purpose. Caution is required.

The mechanism of action is explained here: The potential for slug control with ferric phosphate

It seems to be safe for animals except slugs and snails.

Best regards

 

[tastyfish]

Following with interest.

I note from your posts so far that you are expecting almost an instantaneous effect on the vermatids? Perhaps setting an observation of 14 days would be more realistic.

If a treatment is not having an effect after 14 days, then it's likely not going to.

Good luck on your quest

 

[DarkSkyForever]

I've had great success getting rid of them by starving them out - I switched to feeding floating pellet food instead of mysis and other meaty foods that sink in the water column. I would drop a pinch of pellets, wait for it to be eaten, then repeat as needed. About a month later I have mostly empty tubes. I also superglued the larger snails when I found them, and scraped smaller ones where possible. Now I have zero that I can find.

 

[shred5]

I've had great success getting rid of them by starving them out - I switched to feeding floating pellet food instead of mysis and other meaty foods that sink in the water column. I would drop a pinch of pellets, wait for it to be eaten, then repeat as needed. About a month later I have mostly empty tubes. I also superglued the larger snails when I found them, and scraped smaller ones where possible. Now I have zero that I can find.

Same here. They came in on a frag from a friend who had hundreds in his tank. In my tank they took off under the rocks (Floating shelf) there was hundreds of them in no time.

I stopped feeding the tank and started feeding the fish and in 6 months almost all dead.

 

[tastyfish]

I've had great success getting rid of them by starving them out - I switched to feeding floating pellet food instead of mysis and other meaty foods that sink in the water column. I would drop a pinch of pellets, wait for it to be eaten, then repeat as needed. About a month later I have mostly empty tubes. I also superglued the larger snails when I found them, and scraped smaller ones where possible. Now I have zero that I can find.

Although off topic for the OP, I agree and this has been my approach. Although I still have them (the small, needle sharp species), their numbers dwindled from thousands to probably only a handful of web-slingers. I removed and replaced half of the rock and I have yet to see any new vermatids colonise it.

I feed three times a day with pellet on an autofeeder and supplement with frozen. I have not used coral food for a long time, which is not going to suit everyone TBH.

If you don’t come up with a better solution, then here is a thought.

Remove your corals to a holding tank and dose the display tank with a standard dose of chloroquine phosphate. Just one dose will wipe out your entire snail population. I know because I treated a case of ich this way before. Snails went quick. It took a few weeks after before I could keep snails again. I deplore vermetid snails. Their webs and cones are unsightly. If I ever get a case of these, I won’t hesitate one bit to nuke them this way. The tank will recover in short order and the corals will make it in a holding tank for a few weeks.

Although ReefKeeper is correct, Chloroquine will kill vermatids and other snails, it will kill ALL invertebrates and will likely cause severe ammonia spikes and die off. I would only use this with EXTREME caution. It is certainly NOT a reef safe option.

 

[ReefKeeper64]

Although off topic for the OP, I agree and this has been my approach. Although I still have them (the small, needle sharp species), their numbers dwindled from thousands to probably only a handful of web-slingers. I removed and replaced half of the rock and I have yet to see any new vermatids colonise it.

I feed three times a day with pellet on an autofeeder and supplement with frozen. I have not used coral food for a long time, which is not going to suit everyone TBH.






Although ReefKeeper is correct, Chloroquine will kill vermatids and other snails, it will kill ALL invertebrates and will likely cause severe ammonia spikes and die off. I would only use this with EXTREME caution. It is certainly NOT a reef safe option.

Compared to other options it makes sense for some but not all. I have done this successfully without issue. If you have a strong filtration system, I would imagine that others can can do this same treatment without having an ammonia spike. CP is also run in display tanks in the retail fish and coral industry. I'm speaking from experience here.

To be fair, this isn't a reef treatment, its a fish only treatment. That means removing all corals and inverts and placing them in a QT tank. The DT becomes a temporary fish only tank. Gradually start the treatment and phase it in over a couple of weeks. Snail and worm die off will occur as desired. If you get an ammonia reading, dose amquil and aerate your tank well. The CP breaks down over time (weeks, not months). amquil and CP are safe together. Again, I've been down this path and tested to be sure. You can remove the CP when ready using carbon and water changes. Add a sacrificial snail to test and when the snail lives you know you are in the clear. Considering the alternatives, this was the best treatment for my situation. It was easy and effective so perhaps this method may help another hobbyist.

 

[tastyfish]

Compared to other options it makes sense for some but not all. I have done this successfully without issue. If you have a strong filtration system, I would imagine that others can can do this same treatment without having an ammonia spike. CP is also run in display tanks in the retail fish and coral industry. I'm speaking from experience here.

To be fair, this isn't a reef treatment, its a fish only treatment. That means removing all corals and inverts and placing them in a QT tank. The DT becomes a temporary fish only tank. Gradually start the treatment and phase it in over a couple of weeks. Snail and worm die off will occur as desired. If you get an ammonia reading, dose amquil and aerate your tank well. The CP breaks down over time (weeks, not months). amquil and CP are safe together. Again, I've been down this path and tested to be sure. You can remove the CP when ready using carbon and water changes. Add a sacrificial snail to test and when the snail lives you know you are in the clear. Considering the alternatives, this was the best treatment for my situation. It was easy and effective so perhaps this method may help another hobbyist.

A friend used CP in the display out of desperation as unable to catch and QT fish. He had massive ammonia spikes which wiped out a good number of his fish in a system over over 1200l.

It's certainly not something I would advise due to the die off caused.

Can you let me know where Chloroquine is used systematically? AFAIK you cannot test for Chloroquine. It is not known if carbon removes it OR what it's natural breakdown period is (as it can't be tested for).

Would very much like to hear about any tests for Chloroquine you can point me in the direction of as that is its biggest drawback IME in general treatment.

 

[rc1626]

If you don't come up with a better solution, then here is a thought.

Remove your corals to a holding tank and dose the display tank with a standard dose of chloroquine phosphate. Just one dose will wipe out your entire snail population. I know because I treated a case of ich this way before. Snails went quick. It took a few weeks after before I could keep snails again. I deplore vermetid snails. Their webs and cones are unsightly. If I ever get a case of these, I won't hesitate one bit to nuke them this way. The tank will recover in short order and the corals will make it in a holding tank for a few weeks.

Could you please let me know how much you dosed? I'm about to give this a shot and want to make sure I'm dosing enough. It is said that CP will break down in a DT with rock and sand. Did you have to do any additional doses? Did you run any carbon or do water changes when you were done? If so how soon after dosing? From what I've read the standard dose is about 40mg/gallon but could go as high as 80mg/gallon.

Sorry for so many questions. Just seems that you have the experience with some good results.

Thanks in advance.

 

[ReefKeeper64]

You can tell that you need do dose more when algae starts growing on your glass again.

My experiences are with commercial and personal tanks. In all cases, these are ULN systems and the filtration is able to keep up with the die off. with that in mind, you don’t want to hit your tank hard with a strong dose up front. Rather, you want to slowly introduce this medication. It will absolutely work provided you don’t do this too quickly. Your first sign that the CP is working is that you stop having to clean the glass so often. All algae dies off, snails and worms die off too. If you have a mature tank with lots of worms, then they are going to increase your risk of an ammonia spike.

Now if you detect ammonia with a test kit, then dose amquel. Both products are compatible.

So the truly difficult part is taking this slow while knowing it will work as long as the die off doesn’t all happen overnight. Since I don’t know your tank, I would advise to go ultra slow with 10% of the typical dose added to your tank once per week over a period of up to 10 weeks. The first three weeks you will know if your filtration system can handle the snail the die off. Just keep dosing 10% per week eventually it will kick in. You probably won’t even need to get up to go the full 10 weeks. When all the snails are dead, just leave the med in the tank for another month and enjoy the algae free and snail free look of you new tank. Then introduce carbon and water changes.

To minimize risk, I would not turn off your skimmer at any point and I would also plan to change out your filter socks every couple of days.

Note that the commercial (LFS) tanks and personal tank are all relatively new tanks where CP was planned for from the beginning. The LFS tanks are given small maintenance doses every two weeks or so when the glass starts to show an algae haze. If your tank is mature with lots of worms then you could have die off just like if you dosed prazipro in your DT. Both are safe with caution but you have to go slowly. Both will kill all the worms in your tank and ammonia may become an issue so tastyfish’s story is something to be concerned about. Manually remove all the regular snails and worms you can find with a fish net going through the sand.

 

[rc1626]

Great advice! Thank you for taking the time to lay out the procedure. My tank is @ about 10 months old so there are a decent amount of critters around that will die off. I have 13 fish with plenty of rock so with the advice of going slow my bacterial population should be able to handle the load. I will certainly have some Amquel on hand just in case. Still not 100% certain I will do this but leaning heavily in this direction.
Thanks again.

 

[Dmorty217]

A friend used CP in the display out of desperation as unable to catch and QT fish. He had massive ammonia spikes which wiped out a good number of his fish in a system over over 1200l.

It's certainly not something I would advise due to the die off caused.

Can you let me know where Chloroquine is used systematically? AFAIK you cannot test for Chloroquine. It is not known if carbon removes it OR what it's natural breakdown period is (as it can't be tested for).

Would very much like to hear about any tests for Chloroquine you can point me in the direction of as that is its biggest drawback IME in general treatment.

You can use a spectrophotometer to check levels of CP. The machine is very expensive is the biggest drawback.

 

[ReefKeeper64]

Great advice! Thank you for taking the time to lay out the procedure. My tank is @ about 10 months old so there are a decent amount of critters around that will die off. I have 13 fish with plenty of rock so with the advice of going slow my bacterial population should be able to handle the load. I will certainly have some Amquel on hand just in case. Still not 100% certain I will do this but leaning heavily in this direction.
Thanks again.

Glad I could help. If you have any other questions, don't hesitate to ask.

 

[rc1626]

Glad I could help. If you have any other questions, don't hesitate to ask.

I certainly will. Thanks again.

 

[tastyfish]

You can tell that you need do dose more when algae starts growing on your glass again.

My experiences are with commercial and personal tanks. In all cases, these are ULN systems and the filtration is able to keep up with the die off. with that in mind, you don't want to hit your tank hard with a strong dose up front. Rather, you want to slowly introduce this medication. It will absolutely work provided you don't do this too quickly. Your first sign that the CP is working is that you stop having to clean the glass so often. All algae dies off, snails and worms die off too. If you have a mature tank with lots of worms, then they are going to increase your risk of an ammonia spike.

Now if you detect ammonia with a test kit, then dose amquel. Both products are compatible.

So the truly difficult part is taking this slow while knowing it will work as long as the die off doesn't all happen overnight. Since I don't know your tank, I would advise to go ultra slow with 10% of the typical dose added to your tank once per week over a period of up to 10 weeks. The first three weeks you will know if your filtration system can handle the snail the die off. Just keep dosing 10% per week eventually it will kick in. You probably won't even need to get up to go the full 10 weeks. When all the snails are dead, just leave the med in the tank for another month and enjoy the algae free and snail free look of you new tank. Then introduce carbon and water changes.

To minimize risk, I would not turn off your skimmer at any point and I would also plan to change out your filter socks every couple of days.

Note that the commercial (LFS) tanks and personal tank are all relatively new tanks where CP was planned for from the beginning. The LFS tanks are given small maintenance doses every two weeks or so when the glass starts to show an algae haze. If your tank is mature with lots of worms then you could have die off just like if you dosed prazipro in your DT. Both are safe with caution but you have to go slowly. Both will kill all the worms in your tank and ammonia may become an issue so tastyfish's story is something to be concerned about. Manually remove all the regular snails and worms you can find with a fish net going through the sand.

You can use a spectrophotometer to check levels of CP. The machine is very expensive is the biggest drawback.

That's really interesting, thanks. Looks like they range from about $2500-$12,000 and upwards, plus software and the ability to actually interpret the results...

Slowly building up the dose makes sense, so long as you do not go beyond the target dose. What level would you envisage going to? I would use 12mg/l of cholorquine for treatment of cryptocaryon in most fish - however I'm not sure this would be needed for inverticide!?

 

[ReefKeeper64]

That's really interesting, thanks. Looks like they range from about $2500-$12,000 and upwards, plus software and the ability to actually interpret the results...

Slowly building up the dose makes sense, so long as you do not go beyond the target dose. What level would you envisage going to? I would use 12mg/l of cholorquine for treatment of cryptocaryon in most fish - however I'm not sure this would be needed for inverticide!?

We usually use CP purchased from fishman chemical dot com. Lately I've switched to the off the shelf version since we have it in stock. Its called new life spectrum called ick shield powder. You can read the ingredients online. new life spectrum is reputable and uses a form of CP that has been proven to work just as effectively as fishman's. My last use of it was to cure a powder blue tang of ick. It worked fine and the power blue has been healthy for a few months now. I wouldn't go to the bother with the cost of getting a vet prescription for CP unless I had a buddy who could write a prescription for free. If you go with the over the counter version, just follow the instructions on the bottle and use the 10% per week formula based off of that. I would not go to 100% over 10 weeks unless you still have Vsnails in your tank. I doubt you will need to go beyond 5 weeks but I've never gone that slow so I don't really know for sure. Plus again, every tank is unique. It will be safe and will work. I'm only going into this much detail because I had a case of vermetid snails years ago and would have paid dearly for such a simple method to get rid of them. Figured I'd pass on what I know now. Good luck again.