Vertex Illumina Club
- Thread starter deangelr
- Start date
Padrino
New member
Yeah you are right. Thanks Jeremy it will really help a lot. Also, vertex has been really good in working with me. Im in touch now with Andreas who is a head engineer at Vertex in Austria, and hes working with me to figure out whats going on. I really hope in the end that the meter Jermey sends me reads properly and that the problem was the first par meter I used.
I also put in the question to Andreas as to when/if we will see a mix of red/violet pads which we can add in, rather than just the red pads
I will let you guys know my results as soon as I find out whats going on. Thanks to everyone for the help.
Thanks guys I fixed it.
Yeah I too would be interested in these if they come out
jimrawr
New member
Hey guys I wonder what you think about this? It really seems this fixture, along with other LEDs are really missing the 400-420nm(violet) and 520-540nm(red) spectrums. So as I was trying to figure out how to add some supplemental T5s to my canopy to help with those spectrums, I thought about this. I would mount two T5's on a a sheet of metal, and then somehow just string it to the Illumina fixture on both sides of the fixture so it would have 4 T5 bulbs in total. Anyone see any problems with this??
bluebastion
Member
+3 on the red/UV pads. Can't wait to get them.
bluebastion
Member
Update jim?
jimrawr
New member
So I received the par meter from Jeremy over at PremiumAquatics.com today. Here are the results, all LEDs are on 100%. There is definitely an increase though I am still not sure that this is sufficient for this system? I will contact vertex with my updates and see what they think. I think the par numbers are actually ok now, but dont forget this is at 100% intensity and the 260 model not the 200. What do you guys think?
pmrossetti
Active member
i don't know, adequate, but to me very dissapointing for a 260 at 100%.
just mho. i was under the impression the 260s were monsters.
i'd still ask Vertex about it.
thanks so much for the pictures sir. following
just mho. i was under the impression the 260s were monsters.
i'd still ask Vertex about it.
thanks so much for the pictures sir. following
Jim, move the sensor back 6" slowly while you're still looking at the par numbers and watch it jump up and then back down. It's hard to take readings in a tank and post numbers with it aquascaped, as the rock work is naturally pushing your sensor to the front of the tank, rather than underneath the sensor. Not saying it's good or bad, just stating that one par test of a fixture could have been done directly under the fixture and someone posted the numbers on their tank, then the next par test could have been taken with the sensor not directly under the fixture, and more out towards the front.
You can have a sensor at 6" under the surface of the water, and move it 3" to the front and see a 300% drop in PAR, and then back 5", and see a 450% jump. I think the most accurate way to test this would be on a tank with no aquascape to ensure where the sensor is in relation to the fixture, and then test a new fixture (same model), in the exact same manner. Or maybe even better yet, to ensure accuracy of the comparison test between this fixture and a new one, to just test it in air, not even over a tank, then you can chart where the sensor is in relation to the fixture to be consistent.
This isn't anything that's just related to LED's either. Throughout the years that I've done testing on metal halide bulbs and different reflectors, and I can make PAR readings jump by as much as 30% by just moving a sensor an inch left or an inch right, or front to back a very small amount, etc. It's just due to the sensitive nature of the testing meter.
Let me know if I can do anything to help. I will test my 48" Illumina that I have here to see what it comes out to when I can. HTH!
You can have a sensor at 6" under the surface of the water, and move it 3" to the front and see a 300% drop in PAR, and then back 5", and see a 450% jump. I think the most accurate way to test this would be on a tank with no aquascape to ensure where the sensor is in relation to the fixture, and then test a new fixture (same model), in the exact same manner. Or maybe even better yet, to ensure accuracy of the comparison test between this fixture and a new one, to just test it in air, not even over a tank, then you can chart where the sensor is in relation to the fixture to be consistent.
This isn't anything that's just related to LED's either. Throughout the years that I've done testing on metal halide bulbs and different reflectors, and I can make PAR readings jump by as much as 30% by just moving a sensor an inch left or an inch right, or front to back a very small amount, etc. It's just due to the sensitive nature of the testing meter.
Let me know if I can do anything to help. I will test my 48" Illumina that I have here to see what it comes out to when I can. HTH!
Kolognekoral
New member
Jim,
I find the PAR reading just about what I would expect and certainly enough for all corals we keep. Over 600 PAR would roast most corals. I find that Acroporas grow well from 200 PAR upwards (for the typical species we tend to keep) and LPS are near their limit at 300 PAR and most seem to prefer below 200.
Also, one should take PAR readings with a grain of salt, as they are representing a broad band of wavelengths and tend to register high with white light, not with blue. Yellow and orange are, also, high reading PAR, but not what we want. PAR is a mixed bag. An interesting reference that most of us need to re-learn when applied to LEDs.
As an side, I've been following lots of threads on various forums concerning brownout under LEDs. Until now, I've found no correlation to the LEDs specifically, as most other tanks don't suffer from the problem. It may be the brown-outs are associated to nutrients that are better assimilated under the LEDs, or, the previous lighting had artificially bleached-stressed the corals and their metabolism was in overload, thus allowing for very fast zooxanthellae production when the lighting changed. Just some thoughts. One thing I do strongly suspect, many are using much too intense HQI lighting. I've seen many beautiful tanks over the years and some of the deepest and most lush were under relative little light, yet had thriving acros and lps. Clearly, light is not just light, once again. With the increased use of leds we will certainly learn a great deal more about our corals and their requirements. I wouldn't give up too fast.
I find the PAR reading just about what I would expect and certainly enough for all corals we keep. Over 600 PAR would roast most corals. I find that Acroporas grow well from 200 PAR upwards (for the typical species we tend to keep) and LPS are near their limit at 300 PAR and most seem to prefer below 200.
Also, one should take PAR readings with a grain of salt, as they are representing a broad band of wavelengths and tend to register high with white light, not with blue. Yellow and orange are, also, high reading PAR, but not what we want. PAR is a mixed bag. An interesting reference that most of us need to re-learn when applied to LEDs.
As an side, I've been following lots of threads on various forums concerning brownout under LEDs. Until now, I've found no correlation to the LEDs specifically, as most other tanks don't suffer from the problem. It may be the brown-outs are associated to nutrients that are better assimilated under the LEDs, or, the previous lighting had artificially bleached-stressed the corals and their metabolism was in overload, thus allowing for very fast zooxanthellae production when the lighting changed. Just some thoughts. One thing I do strongly suspect, many are using much too intense HQI lighting. I've seen many beautiful tanks over the years and some of the deepest and most lush were under relative little light, yet had thriving acros and lps. Clearly, light is not just light, once again. With the increased use of leds we will certainly learn a great deal more about our corals and their requirements. I wouldn't give up too fast.
Kolognekoral
New member
Sorry, double post!
I agree that the numbers are more than adequate for sps pretty much anywhere in the tank. However, I disagree with the statement that par numbers should be taken with a grain of salt.
PAR is extremely important in a tank - too little and some corals will indeed brown out, too much and you'll roast corals as mentioned above. PAR (PUR, PPFD, or any other term that's been put on it) is the measurement of intensity of light between the ~400nm and ~700nm, or in other words - the intensity of the light that our corals use to photosynthesize.
The downside that we've all found with LED's is not a coverage issue, or even an intensity issue for that matter, but rather a spectrum issue. LED's by nature are a very narrow banded wavelength light emitter. If you take a look at a blue LED spectral plot, you'll notice some really heavy spikes around 450nm or so, and not much else going on in other areas. Then take a look at an equivelant ATI Blue Plus lamp for example, and while it's just as blue to the naked eye, the lamp still has spikes in both lower and higher wave lengths, almost all the way up to 600nm, and as low as 400nm. The same can be said for Royal Blue LED's, White LED's, etc.
A lot of us older hobbyists remember that term "full spectrum lighting". You could take a look at any metal halide above 5500k or any T12 or T5 lamp, and see where that term "full spectrum" comes from by looking at it's spectral plot. Anyone that's looked at Sanjay's halide spectral plots have noticed this. LED's do not work in this same fashion, therefore we try to mix colors to provide that "full spectrum" that we got from the use of other light sources.
Vertex Illumina, one of the best - if not the best, LED fixture on the market is selling the red pads for this very reason. It will help to get those spikes of yellow and red that we got with our metal halides (even our 20k halides), that we do not get with LED's now. This, in my opinion, has more to do with our coral coloration than just about anything else - assuming the PAR is there and tank parameters are decent.
Keep in mind that RGB LED's will not fix this issue until someone comes out with an RGB fixture that can control independent diodes, thus mixing all sorts of different colors. Right now the RGB fixtures available on the market can be tweaked to one color (although just about any gradient of color you wish), but it will still be a very narrow wavelength of light being emitted - just in whatever coloration you have it tuned to.
PAR is extremely important in a tank - too little and some corals will indeed brown out, too much and you'll roast corals as mentioned above. PAR (PUR, PPFD, or any other term that's been put on it) is the measurement of intensity of light between the ~400nm and ~700nm, or in other words - the intensity of the light that our corals use to photosynthesize.
The downside that we've all found with LED's is not a coverage issue, or even an intensity issue for that matter, but rather a spectrum issue. LED's by nature are a very narrow banded wavelength light emitter. If you take a look at a blue LED spectral plot, you'll notice some really heavy spikes around 450nm or so, and not much else going on in other areas. Then take a look at an equivelant ATI Blue Plus lamp for example, and while it's just as blue to the naked eye, the lamp still has spikes in both lower and higher wave lengths, almost all the way up to 600nm, and as low as 400nm. The same can be said for Royal Blue LED's, White LED's, etc.
A lot of us older hobbyists remember that term "full spectrum lighting". You could take a look at any metal halide above 5500k or any T12 or T5 lamp, and see where that term "full spectrum" comes from by looking at it's spectral plot. Anyone that's looked at Sanjay's halide spectral plots have noticed this. LED's do not work in this same fashion, therefore we try to mix colors to provide that "full spectrum" that we got from the use of other light sources.
Vertex Illumina, one of the best - if not the best, LED fixture on the market is selling the red pads for this very reason. It will help to get those spikes of yellow and red that we got with our metal halides (even our 20k halides), that we do not get with LED's now. This, in my opinion, has more to do with our coral coloration than just about anything else - assuming the PAR is there and tank parameters are decent.
Keep in mind that RGB LED's will not fix this issue until someone comes out with an RGB fixture that can control independent diodes, thus mixing all sorts of different colors. Right now the RGB fixtures available on the market can be tweaked to one color (although just about any gradient of color you wish), but it will still be a very narrow wavelength of light being emitted - just in whatever coloration you have it tuned to.
jimrawr
New member
Yup yup, I did notice that when testing, even with the first meter. I tried to test where the highest numbers were possible so long as I could move in that direction. These numbers are at least respectable, when I can connect the T5's tomorrow or friday I will retest and send the meter back, is that ok?
Kolognekoral
New member
Jeremy, :wave:
the problem I have with PAR is its reference to the complete photosynthetic spectrum, which marine tanks do not require and actually causes problems with nuisance algae and pigment production. Admittedly, the PAR rating was usefull for Halides and T5s, as they produce a broad spectrum, but for LEDs they simply mislead one into thinking they have the correct spectrum, which may not be the case. A battery of amber LEDs will give a massive PAR...for that particular wavelength. We assume that a lamp designed for a marine tank will have the correct spectrum, but, as we all know, there are quite a few LED lamps sold for marine aquariums that simply do not cut it for spectrum, even though they may well show a strong PAR. Therefore, I submit that PAR is not the same quantity of comparison to which we became accustomed with Halides and T5. LEDs are simply a different animal. We don't need to teach each other about their basics, we both know this.
I just added a red module to my Illumina SR260 and will be testing any changes. Of course, it does change the spectrum a bit, but not to a large degree, although I expect many T5 fans will find the depth of colour more to their liking, as the red augments the zooxanthellae's brown-red, which is responsible for much of the colour appearance of corals. Frankly, I'm not sure I like the visual effect, but this is a test. My first note is the paling of pink fluorescent pigments, which are produced via wavelength shift.
As far a RBG led arrays, they are useless for anything outside of aesthetic. They only mimic a complex spectrum and throw strange-coloured shadows. If the wavelength isn't there from the beginning, it won't show up with RGB. I expect many will like them, but you won't find the yellows doing any better. This could be an interesting approach, as yellow wavelengths are the main PUR of cyanobacteria, which is encouraged by many HQI lamps.
I expect we will be seeing broader spectrum colours in LEDs, perhaps a phospor product, as the market increases. Until then, we need to find the best spectra for the corals, plus our eyes.
jamie
the problem I have with PAR is its reference to the complete photosynthetic spectrum, which marine tanks do not require and actually causes problems with nuisance algae and pigment production. Admittedly, the PAR rating was usefull for Halides and T5s, as they produce a broad spectrum, but for LEDs they simply mislead one into thinking they have the correct spectrum, which may not be the case. A battery of amber LEDs will give a massive PAR...for that particular wavelength. We assume that a lamp designed for a marine tank will have the correct spectrum, but, as we all know, there are quite a few LED lamps sold for marine aquariums that simply do not cut it for spectrum, even though they may well show a strong PAR. Therefore, I submit that PAR is not the same quantity of comparison to which we became accustomed with Halides and T5. LEDs are simply a different animal. We don't need to teach each other about their basics, we both know this.
I just added a red module to my Illumina SR260 and will be testing any changes. Of course, it does change the spectrum a bit, but not to a large degree, although I expect many T5 fans will find the depth of colour more to their liking, as the red augments the zooxanthellae's brown-red, which is responsible for much of the colour appearance of corals. Frankly, I'm not sure I like the visual effect, but this is a test. My first note is the paling of pink fluorescent pigments, which are produced via wavelength shift.
As far a RBG led arrays, they are useless for anything outside of aesthetic. They only mimic a complex spectrum and throw strange-coloured shadows. If the wavelength isn't there from the beginning, it won't show up with RGB. I expect many will like them, but you won't find the yellows doing any better. This could be an interesting approach, as yellow wavelengths are the main PUR of cyanobacteria, which is encouraged by many HQI lamps.
I expect we will be seeing broader spectrum colours in LEDs, perhaps a phospor product, as the market increases. Until then, we need to find the best spectra for the corals, plus our eyes.
jamie
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