Vinegar Dosing question

[Nanook]

Well, my skimmer is going nuts with thick foam! Skimmer lid is being lifted off due to skimmate. Need to recheck nitrate when I get a free minute.

 

[bertoni]

I suspect that's the look of progress.

 

[Nanook]

Nitrate is coming down to 20ish now. Phosphate is .03, but I do have some GFO in a small Geo reactor.

 

[tmz]

OK, I'd watch the corals closely, some might not like a rapid drop in phosphate ; might think about dropping the gfo and/ or reducing the carbon dosing amount for a time if needed. Keep an eye out for bacterial accumulations, snotty pink stuff and/or cloudy water

 

[Dan_P]

I started dosing vinegar on my 470 gallon reef with 100 gallons in the sump 16 days ago. I started at a higher dose than the chart said to speed up the process, I'm currently at 70cc/day. How long does it typically take to see reduction in nitrate? I'm currently close to 30ppm.

Of note, I have 45 fish and feed heavily.

Just came across this old poll

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=288714&page=14

"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”
Total of 79 votes

I add vodka and the experience is mostly postive : 40 votes

I don't add vodka : 30 votes

I add vodka but don't see any differences : 5 votes

I add vodka and mostly bad experiences with it: 4 votes

"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”-

The results from this poll say 9 out 40 attempts resulted in no results or negative results. I'll summarize this as meaning a ~25% failure rate for carbon dosing. Unfortunately, to this day we still don't seem to know why the method fails. I wonder if the real success rate is closer to 50% or a flip of the coin. Feels that way to me after reading this Reef Central forums.

Just found this...

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=288714&page=27

"œMy theorie (that has been proven enough in europ) is that the method is working in lets say 50% of the cases. In the other 50 it dosen't at all, since the method cultures also possible pathogenes."

 

[bertoni]

That could well be true. I just don't know. Any data that we gather is from a self-selected sample, for starters.

 

[tmz]

That poll is 14 years old and vague without any details on method or other variables:so extrapolating from it is of dubious value :musing it to a 50% positive experience rate rate vs the reported 82% rate is without any logical basis.

Even though it's age and lack of detail limit it's probative value, since it's been cited ,it's important to represent it correctly without imagining it supports a conclusion of a 50/50 for "real success rate". So , here it is unedited :


Total of 79 votes

I add vodka and the experience is mostly postive : 40 votes

I don't add vodka : 30 votes

I add vodka but don't see any differences : 5 votes

I add vodka and mostly bad experiences with it: 4 votes

===========================================

So 49 people used it and 4 out of them had a negative experience.

I wonder if the 4 are the same as those who used the Zeovit method and made the switch.

In summary for the sake of accuracy:

49 not 40 report using vodka,

5 of the 49 ( 11%) who used some amount of vodka reported no results.

4 of the 49(8%) who used some amount of vodka reported mostly negative experience.

40 of the 49 (82%) reported a mostly positive experience.

 

[Nanook]

I’m dosing 150cc/day of vinegar and just shy of a shot glass of vodka daily. Nitrate is 15-17 ppm and phosphate is .03-06.

 

[Nanook]

Skimmer lid is getting blown off with crazy foam! Pain in the griss.

 

[bertoni]

Hmm, time to get that griss removed.

 

[tmz]

So, it's about 40 ml of vodka and 115 vinegar for 845 gallons or .51 vodka equivalents per gallon in terms of total carbon;correct? FWIW that's about the same maintenance dose I use but I took a month or so to amp up to it.

Might consider slowing down the skimmer flow and or backing up a bit on the dose for now.I run two large ASM skimmers ; the cups fill up with dark smelly effluent every few days but almost never bubble over.

Seems like the nitrate has stopped creeping up and is going down a bit ; I'd be patient with it ;it should go lower but might take a month or two

 

[Dan_P]

That could well be true. I just don't know. Any data that we gather is from a self-selected sample, for starters.

It is tough trying to figure out what the dosing success rate is. The forum tends to be reports biased toward "œbad news". Success stories are rare, usually N=1 experiences and incompletely documented when reported, making reproduction of the success difficult and learning about the methodology difficult.

Unlike the success rate for using GFO to reduce phosphate concentration, carbon dosing success seems to be probabilistic. Variable conditions in the aquarium and the range in discipline following a carbon dosing protocol contribute to an apparent hit-or-miss success rate. The former is what I am looking into with small scale carbon dosing experiments. I am currently getting my feet wet performing screening experiments. I ran into my first big surprise when after three successful carbon dosing experiments, nothing is happening in the fourth after 16 days. I might be having a learning opportunity

 

[Dan_P]

That poll is 14 years old and vague without any details on method or other variables:so extrapolating from it is of dubious value :musing it to a 50% positive experience rate rate vs the reported 82% rate is without any logical basis.

Fair enough Tom, but more than a decade later, the issues with this methodology as reported here remain the same.

A carbon dosing success rate of 50%, a coin flip, is a reasonable model of reality given the issues people continue to have with this method. If the success rate were really as high as 82%, I suspect the interest in this topic would be on the level of GFO use.

The value of musing is like brainstorming. Ideas beget ideas. By wondering out loud that we might be having some real issues with this methodology, we might get others thinking differently about it. I hang around this forum because I have learned things in the past, but more importantly to me, I get new ideas when I read the posts. So, if I state challenging notions, I am typically looking for ideas, though I admit the approach can make people defensive

 

[tmz]

There are a myriad of variables in application and environments today, as there was 14 years ago. The basic science of carbon dosing when understood gives more ways to evaluate it as a choice than a 14 year old poll ,misrepresented at that .
Carbon dosing is not a solution for everyone and everything ; it is an option with some benefits and some pitfalls. Uderstanding what it does and doesn't do is the real ground for discovery.

Personally, it is integral to my main system and has been for nearly a decade ;though, I run several tanks without it mostly for leathers and other softies.

A large amount of very detailed experience and relevant studies has already been recorded and has been posted in Reef Central in many threads and forums , including this one for those who are interested :

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2134105&highlight=organic+carbon+dosing

There is no need to be "defensive" about it ; implying so is insulting and obfuscatory. There is, however, a need to defend against poor and inaccurate information . More so when it's combined with a post devoid of fact based on a misquouted poll. I taught brainstorming techniques in business and government settings for years; the post under discussion isn't it,IMO. There are no challenging notions there just a misrepresented old poll and a muse tainted with unsubstantiated opinion.

 

[Nanook]

Just an update...

My nitrate was 11 three days ago. Today it’s down to 4-6. Phosphate with GFO IS .05. Alkalinity is 7.1.

My skimmer is still pulling sudsy skim, shoots little volvanoes of sludge out the holes and foam around the lid of the skimmer. Quite messy. Acropora looking okay after light shocking them almost a month ago.

Vinegar remains at 150cc/day and vodka is one shot glass shy per day. Some bacterial mulm noticed on power heads but not much, still getting green algae on the glass but no where else.

Watch should I cut back on and how much?

 

[Dan_P]

There is no need to be "defensive" about it ; implying so is insulting and obfuscatory. There is, however, a need to defend against poor and inaccurate information . More so when it's combined with a post devoid of fact based on a misquouted poll. I taught brainstorming techniques in business and government settings for years; the post under discussion isn't it,IMO. There are no challenging notions there just a misrepresented old poll and a muse tainted with unsubstantiated opinion.

Tom, I apologize for needling you. Dan

 

[bertoni]

I'd probably try cutting back 20% and watching the result for a while. I think those numbers should be safe as is, so I would be careful about changing the dosing rapidly.

 

[Nanook]

Thanks. I’ll cut back to 120cc/day of vinegar.

 

[sensei]

Nanook,

I also started doisng vineger and vodka 2 weeks ago in my 600g system.
I have around 30 NO3 and it did not came down no matter what I did.

I just raised my dose to 100cc of vineger equivalent, NO3 is still 30.

If I understood correctly you were doing 150cc of vineger and 10cc of vodka per day correct?


Thanks

 

[Nanook]

I started with just vinegar and a month later added vodka at 10 cc/day. The vinegar was 150 and vodka a shot glass daily and now I’m seeing very low nitrate. 10 weeks into dosing the 600 gallon system and I got the reduction.