Vinegar Dosing question

[Dan_P]

How has the calcium and alkalinity consumption trended during the dosing? I read your recent reply where you stated that you keep weekly logs. I wondered whether your system's consumption of calcium or alkalinity, or both, decreased during dosing. I also wonder whether the rate of calcium and alkalinity consumption decreased as your carbon dose increased.

I am very interested in this information.

 

[Nanook]

Has the carbon dosing resulted in clearer water? Maybe better light penetration? Maybe just the change in nutrient levels rather than the level itself caused the issue. I've always had trouble figuring out problems with "sticks" because many times there in a big delay between cause & effect.

Water has always been clear as I run carbon passively every month or two if it looks a little yellow. But, the water does look a little clearer than before.

How has the calcium and alkalinity consumption trended during the dosing? I read your recent reply where you stated that you keep weekly logs. I wondered whether your system's consumption of calcium or alkalinity, or both, decreased during dosing. I also wonder whether the rate of calcium and alkalinity consumption decreased as your carbon dose increased.

I am very interested in this information.

Without dosing either, my alkalinity and calcium have been completely unchanged. No consumption of either number.

 

[Dan_P]

Without dosing either, my alkalinity and calcium have been completely unchanged. No consumption of either number.

Based on my dosing experiments, I would have guessed this might be the situation.

How much calcium and alkalinity were consumed weekly before dosing (Forgot to ask)?

 

[Nanook]

Based on my dosing experiments, I would have guessed this might be the situation.

How much calcium and alkalinity were consumed weekly before dosing (Forgot to ask)?

Nothing really before, but I had just added live rock on January 12th.

 

[Dan_P]

Nothing really before, but I had just added live rock on January 12th.

OK, I missed the point that this was a fairly new set up.

I was wondering whether the presence of coral and lack of alkalinity and calcium consumption might be indicative of a problem. But if your coral are small, maybe consumption levels are too small to measure.

The second thought was around dosing vinegar (acetic acid). Every dose neutralizes a small amount of carbonate alkalinity and replaces it with acetate. Then what? When the acetate is consumed, is the carbonate alkalinity replaced or are you slowly losing alkalinity? This might not be noticed because acetate can look like bicarbonate in alkalinity tests. If acetate is consumed slower than it is dosed, it could accumulate and become a bigger part of the alkalinity. A top end dose of 2 mL vinegar/gallon could replace 0.4 meq/L in one day. If your system is running at 3 meq/L, that might be an important consideration for coral health. And if there is accumulation of acetate at this dose, an even larger part of the alkalinity could be replaced by acetate. The worse case scenario occurs when there are no water changes or alkalinity dosing.

Anyway, no definite answer to your question but something for the forum to debate as to the possible impact on coral health when acetate replaces some of the carbonate alkalinity.

 

[bertoni]

That's an interesting idea. I don't know that acetate would last all that long in our systems, but I don't know of a cost-effective way of checking that, either.

 

[Dan_P]

That's an interesting idea. I don't know that acetate would last all that long in our systems, but I don't know of a cost-effective way of checking that, either.

You echo my thoughts. The big assumption is that acetate is rapidly consumed. Ken Feldman provided TOC evidence for the rapid disappearance of ethanol (TOC went up then went down in an expected amount after ethanol dose, but that was only 1 ppm. Does the system respond this way with larger amounts?). He did not measure the response for a larger dose. Ditto for glucose. Unless bacteria are actively adjusted to consume these carbon sources, there could be a lag time before consumption starts. All this is thinking out loud. We need data.

 

[sensei]

The most conservative standard for amping up is the chart presented as as a sticky at the top of this forum( see vodka dosing chart under reef chemistry articles) Personally, I go faster. How the tank reacts is tank specific though given variables like surface area for bacteria to growth ; nutrient levels and a number of other things. Having said that, if pressed for a hip shot opinion , I'd say: increase by ten to fifteen percent per week till you reach a .4 vinegar equivalent per gallon per day level and hold that level for a few weeks before going higher; drop it back to .2 to .3 if cloudiness or excessive bacterial growth is observed in areas you don't want it.

I wanted to give an update and comment on how it is going:

I started prepared a vodka / vinager mix in wich 1ml of my mix equals to 4ml of vinager equivalent.

I was dosing 55 ml of the mix (220ml of vineger equivalent) after 5 weeks but one week later I started seeing burned tips in acros, so I lowered to 50ml ( 200ml of vineger equivalent). After 2 weeks of maintaing that dose things do not really look better so I just back to 40 ml ( 160ml vineger equivalent).

at the begining I was 25- 30ppm of NO3, now the reading I am gettting is less than 25 but more than 10 with salifert NO3 kit so not exactly sure the actual value.

what could be the cause of the burned tips?
could it be a rapid decrease in NO3? alk has been 7.5. alk and other parameters had been very stable and the only change in tank was the carbon dosing so it is the only thing I could atribute the detrimental effects I started seing.

any ideas and or comments??

Thanks

 

[Dan_P]

Where are we with understanding the role of carbon dosing increasing bacteria that are harmful (STN) to coral? The Vibrio genus seems to be a popular culprit that can harm coral and its population potentially increased with carbon dosing.

 

[Daddi0]

The fact that these frags are browning then STN'ing

How long have these frags been in your reef?
Cheers! Mark

 

[tmz]

I was dosing 55 ml of the mix (220ml of vineger equivalent) after 5 weeks but one week later I started seeing burned tips in acros, so I lowered to 50ml ( 200ml of vineger equivalent). After 2 weeks of maintaing that dose things do not really look better so I just back to 40 ml ( 160ml vineger equivalent).

at the begining I was 25- 30ppm of NO3, now the reading I am gettting is less than 25 but more than 10 with salifert NO3 kit so not exactly sure the actual value.

what could be the cause of the burned tips?
could it be a rapid decrease in NO3? alk has been 7.5. alk and other parameters had been very stable and the only change in tank was the carbon dosing so it is the only thing I could atribute the detrimental effects I started seing.

any ideas and or comments??


I'd take a look at the PO4. ATP (adenosine triphosapate)has a role in poviding energy and direction for the secretion of calcium carbonate for skeletal growth in the ECF(extracytoplastic cacifying fluid) which is present at the low end of the polyp.

Sorry for the late response; I post infrequently now due to some minor medical issues which sometimes make if difficult to sit at the computer for long

 

[sensei]

I was dosing 55 ml of the mix (220ml of vineger equivalent) after 5 weeks but one week later I started seeing burned tips in acros, so I lowered to 50ml ( 200ml of vineger equivalent). After 2 weeks of maintaing that dose things do not really look better so I just back to 40 ml ( 160ml vineger equivalent).

at the begining I was 25- 30ppm of NO3, now the reading I am gettting is less than 25 but more than 10 with salifert NO3 kit so not exactly sure the actual value.

what could be the cause of the burned tips?
could it be a rapid decrease in NO3? alk has been 7.5. alk and other parameters had been very stable and the only change in tank was the carbon dosing so it is the only thing I could atribute the detrimental effects I started seing.

any ideas and or comments??


I'd take a look at the PO4. ATP (adenosine triphosapate)has a role in poviding energy and direction for the secretion of calcium carbonate for skeletal growth in the ECF(extracytoplastic cacifying fluid) which is present at the low end of the polyp.

Sorry for the late response; I post infrequently now due to some minor medical issues which sometimes make if difficult to sit at the computer for long

Tom,

my PO4 is 0.055 with hanna phosphorus.
any other ideas?