I have been reading about vinegar dosing as a means of reducing nitrates in the tank (and therefore undesirable algaes). Can anyone share their experiences as well as how to go about this? I have a 30gal tank with a hang on Sea Clone skimmer and a hang on filter used only for carbon and detritus filtering. My nitrates are currently at 25-30 ppm, while nitrites are undetectable (0). Would I be better off just doing 3 or 4 50% water changes over the next week? Calcium is at 470 and alkalinity is 10.0. Salinity is 1.023 and PH is 8.2.
Vinegar Dosing
- Thread starter Foody
- Start date
mr86mister
Saltaholic
Can we have a bit more info on your system. The amount of time it has been running. What is the livestock in it? You're normal schedule of cleaning. IME, I have gone through SeaClone skimmers and never have had luck with them actually working properly. Always some stupid issue with them.
Hopefully we can get this figured out for you!!
Hopefully we can get this figured out for you!!
cardiffgiant
Active member
In conjunction wit ha strong skimmer, carbon dosing can be a great option for reducing nitrates. I use vinegar in my kalk top off, which also assists with kalk saturation. Since you're Ca and Kh are pretty high, you'll want to set up some type of drip, in which case you might consider both vinegar and vodka (to get some diversity in the bacteria that will consume your nitrates). My advice is to read thoroughly and go verrry slowly, as many have experienced problems by introducing too much carbon source too quickly.
Before starting down this path, what about looking into a different option than the HOB filter? In a lot of systems you'll see a filter sock that is changed every 3-4 days and soem type of carbon filtration that is changed on a monthly basis. How often are you cleaning the HOB filter? Is it possible that the HOB is trapping detritus and slowly releasing nitrates back into the system?
Before starting down this path, what about looking into a different option than the HOB filter? In a lot of systems you'll see a filter sock that is changed every 3-4 days and soem type of carbon filtration that is changed on a monthly basis. How often are you cleaning the HOB filter? Is it possible that the HOB is trapping detritus and slowly releasing nitrates back into the system?
Last edited:
DEEP BLUE SIX
New member
What's in your tank? (corals & fish etc) ?
How long has it been up?
30 gallons is not a huge water volume.
But the key is stability (in any tank) once you get things in check.
A couple large water changes could really help. Spaced out appropriately.
Test all your levels after each water change, including the next day again.
See how much you can get your Nitrate level down and "keep it down".
You may have to lessen feeding a little (don't starve anything of course) but consider how you can decrease your wastes(nutrient importing).
Water changes are good. I'd go for a 25% change first- test and see what you get out of that. Increase the amount on the next water change if it does not touch it too much.
As long as you don't change too much water too close together. You'll be ok.
(You don't want to stress/hurt what ever you have in the tank)
I've always been a big fan of skimming. The one you have might be ok for just a 30 gallon system. But I would (when you can of course) consider upgrading to a higher quality skimmer.
Your other params listed are "ok". But unless you have a reason for a lower salinity currently, I'd bring it up to 1.025 at least. (1.023 is fine for fish and lower salinities can help with other problems sometimes) But if this a reef planned tank for corals too.. it will be better at 1.025 - 1.026. Salinity in that range will help your skimmer work more effectively too.
Is your only mechanical filter the hang-on one for the carbon?
That's ok. Just wondered. How often do you change the carbon out?
With no sump there is less space for Chaeto or other macroalgaes which can burn up some excess nitrates & phosphates. If you have room somewhere you could try a small pump to a reactor(s) that could more effectively run GFO and GAC. (Granulated Ferric Oxide and Activated Carbon) For Nitrate and Phosphate control.
In a smaller set up with less space in the system, sometimes water changes (important
in every tank) can be one of the biggest tools used to lower the negative levels. Along with good Skimming, & nutrient import management. Fuges have worked to a certain point for me with most of my tanks. But they are not possible in every set up.
My current tank I have been dosing with a combo of Vodka and Vinegar for a year. It's been extremely effective for me. Just research and start slowly. Monitor your daily dose, increase when needed and keep testing your levels until you get them where you want.
Then you can figure out your "maintenance dose".
Calcium looks pretty much fine. Alk is in range too. I prefer to keep mine around 9.
But 8-12 Dkh is fine. Ph is good. You should test your Phosphate level regularly for now too- along with Nitrates.
There is A LOT of info on the Vinegar and / or Vodka dosing. Search reef keeping articles by Randy Holmes Farley. As well as various other articles on other sites.
Upstates own "TMZ" (Tom) has many great write ups with a massive amount of info. Study up and take it slowly. Carbon dosing really works well when used appropriately.
How long has it been up?
30 gallons is not a huge water volume.
But the key is stability (in any tank) once you get things in check.
A couple large water changes could really help. Spaced out appropriately.
Test all your levels after each water change, including the next day again.
See how much you can get your Nitrate level down and "keep it down".
You may have to lessen feeding a little (don't starve anything of course) but consider how you can decrease your wastes(nutrient importing).
Water changes are good. I'd go for a 25% change first- test and see what you get out of that. Increase the amount on the next water change if it does not touch it too much.
As long as you don't change too much water too close together. You'll be ok.
(You don't want to stress/hurt what ever you have in the tank)
I've always been a big fan of skimming. The one you have might be ok for just a 30 gallon system. But I would (when you can of course) consider upgrading to a higher quality skimmer.
Your other params listed are "ok". But unless you have a reason for a lower salinity currently, I'd bring it up to 1.025 at least. (1.023 is fine for fish and lower salinities can help with other problems sometimes) But if this a reef planned tank for corals too.. it will be better at 1.025 - 1.026. Salinity in that range will help your skimmer work more effectively too.
Is your only mechanical filter the hang-on one for the carbon?
That's ok. Just wondered. How often do you change the carbon out?
With no sump there is less space for Chaeto or other macroalgaes which can burn up some excess nitrates & phosphates. If you have room somewhere you could try a small pump to a reactor(s) that could more effectively run GFO and GAC. (Granulated Ferric Oxide and Activated Carbon) For Nitrate and Phosphate control.
In a smaller set up with less space in the system, sometimes water changes (important
in every tank) can be one of the biggest tools used to lower the negative levels. Along with good Skimming, & nutrient import management. Fuges have worked to a certain point for me with most of my tanks. But they are not possible in every set up.
My current tank I have been dosing with a combo of Vodka and Vinegar for a year. It's been extremely effective for me. Just research and start slowly. Monitor your daily dose, increase when needed and keep testing your levels until you get them where you want.
Then you can figure out your "maintenance dose".
Calcium looks pretty much fine. Alk is in range too. I prefer to keep mine around 9.
But 8-12 Dkh is fine. Ph is good. You should test your Phosphate level regularly for now too- along with Nitrates.
There is A LOT of info on the Vinegar and / or Vodka dosing. Search reef keeping articles by Randy Holmes Farley. As well as various other articles on other sites.
Upstates own "TMZ" (Tom) has many great write ups with a massive amount of info. Study up and take it slowly. Carbon dosing really works well when used appropriately.
Good start...
Here is my tank info... In March I bought an existing 30 gallon set up from somebody that had it for 2 years previously. It had a hang on Tetra 20 filter and 2 cheap, small power heads. Once I moved it it re-cycled and killed nearly everything in the tank. Go figure. Originally I began water changes, about 5 gallons, every 2 weeks. About8 weeks ago my Condy Anemone (the only surviving original livestock) died so I took a water sample to the Reef Shoppe. Tom (the owner) told me my nitrites were 300+. Ouch. I did 8 nine gallon water changes in 2 weeks and then 2 twelve gallon changes. Nitrites were 0 at this point. Since then I have done 9 gallon water changes faithfully with Reef Crystals.
The tank now has an Aqua Tech 60 hang on filter with the bacteria media removed. I only use it for the carbon inserts (2) which I change monthly. I also remove the inserts at each water change and scrape down any accumulated detritus, etc. I have a Sea Clone hang-on skimmer that does seem to function properly. It occasionally foams up and has to be emptied from time to time. I have a crushed coral substrate and perhaps 30 pounds of live rock.
Livestock includes 2 bicentric occelaris, 1 royal gramma and a fire gobi, 2 peppermint shrimp, 1 (brand new) coral banded shrimp, 2 turbo snails, 1 (other type) of snail, 2 red legged hermit crabs, 1 Tiger sand conch, and a 6" Deresa clam.
Corals include zoanthids, 4 or 5 smaller colonies, total of about 70-80 polyps including a beautiful cluster of huge, blue hued zo's. Galaxea frag, about the size of a silver dollar, hammer coral, about 20 polyps on one head, another hammer coral, 2 heads, about 40 polyps each, Star Polyps on a rock about the size of a softball, Small capricornus frag (1 -1/2"), digitata (6" long), several mushroom colonies of different colors, total of about 9 or 10 'shrooms, crowne leather (about 4" tall), 1 pulsing xenia cluster, small cluster of aantheliae.
That's all I can think of. The LFS told me just today that my salinity should definitely be no higher than 1.023. I definitely don't have any room left to add more bulkly equipment to my set up. As usual, hindsight being 20/20, if I had to do it over I would have begun with a bigger set up but I didn't. I have what I have and I have to work with that. RO/DI is running now. Will be doing a 16gal change tomorrow, thursday and then again on Friday. Simple math tells me that should get it down to under 5 which should be acceptable, as well as get it to where my weekly 9 gallon changes would finish the task.
I was unable to find any charts on the net as to how much vinegar/vodka to add as well as how often to add it. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Here is my tank info... In March I bought an existing 30 gallon set up from somebody that had it for 2 years previously. It had a hang on Tetra 20 filter and 2 cheap, small power heads. Once I moved it it re-cycled and killed nearly everything in the tank. Go figure. Originally I began water changes, about 5 gallons, every 2 weeks. About8 weeks ago my Condy Anemone (the only surviving original livestock) died so I took a water sample to the Reef Shoppe. Tom (the owner) told me my nitrites were 300+. Ouch. I did 8 nine gallon water changes in 2 weeks and then 2 twelve gallon changes. Nitrites were 0 at this point. Since then I have done 9 gallon water changes faithfully with Reef Crystals.
The tank now has an Aqua Tech 60 hang on filter with the bacteria media removed. I only use it for the carbon inserts (2) which I change monthly. I also remove the inserts at each water change and scrape down any accumulated detritus, etc. I have a Sea Clone hang-on skimmer that does seem to function properly. It occasionally foams up and has to be emptied from time to time. I have a crushed coral substrate and perhaps 30 pounds of live rock.
Livestock includes 2 bicentric occelaris, 1 royal gramma and a fire gobi, 2 peppermint shrimp, 1 (brand new) coral banded shrimp, 2 turbo snails, 1 (other type) of snail, 2 red legged hermit crabs, 1 Tiger sand conch, and a 6" Deresa clam.
Corals include zoanthids, 4 or 5 smaller colonies, total of about 70-80 polyps including a beautiful cluster of huge, blue hued zo's. Galaxea frag, about the size of a silver dollar, hammer coral, about 20 polyps on one head, another hammer coral, 2 heads, about 40 polyps each, Star Polyps on a rock about the size of a softball, Small capricornus frag (1 -1/2"), digitata (6" long), several mushroom colonies of different colors, total of about 9 or 10 'shrooms, crowne leather (about 4" tall), 1 pulsing xenia cluster, small cluster of aantheliae.
That's all I can think of. The LFS told me just today that my salinity should definitely be no higher than 1.023. I definitely don't have any room left to add more bulkly equipment to my set up. As usual, hindsight being 20/20, if I had to do it over I would have begun with a bigger set up but I didn't. I have what I have and I have to work with that. RO/DI is running now. Will be doing a 16gal change tomorrow, thursday and then again on Friday. Simple math tells me that should get it down to under 5 which should be acceptable, as well as get it to where my weekly 9 gallon changes would finish the task.
I was unable to find any charts on the net as to how much vinegar/vodka to add as well as how often to add it. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Jacwil
New member
Imo your tank is still in a cycle.
I'm also not sure why the LFS has you keeping your SG at 1.023, most of us keep it at 1.026.
You say your skimmer sometimes foams and occasionally you have to empty it. There should be almost a constant "foamy head" and although many systems are different I would think with your current bioload you would need to be emptying the collection cup weekly, however with all of your water changes, maybe thats not the case. I would adjust your skimmer so it's skimming more wet, meaning adjust it so you see the water/foam further up the neck.
I'm also not sure why the LFS has you keeping your SG at 1.023, most of us keep it at 1.026.
You say your skimmer sometimes foams and occasionally you have to empty it. There should be almost a constant "foamy head" and although many systems are different I would think with your current bioload you would need to be emptying the collection cup weekly, however with all of your water changes, maybe thats not the case. I would adjust your skimmer so it's skimming more wet, meaning adjust it so you see the water/foam further up the neck.
cardiffgiant
Active member
I'm not familiar with that type of HOB. I know htat some have room for two cartridges. I'd try some type of pre-filter that you can change out or rinse every 3-4 days before your carbon.
I agree with raising your specific gravity to be more similar to natural sea water (1.026).
I agree with raising your specific gravity to be more similar to natural sea water (1.026).
DEEP BLUE SIX
New member
Many saltwater fish arrive at LFS's in specific gravities between 1.019 - 1.022 approx.(sometimes lower!) and many LFS for some reason still keep some of their fish tanks at lower salinity. Even 1.022 - 1.023. (I've checked it at lower than that in a certain shop!)
This practice for most hobbyists today is not going on with exceptions of some quarantine/treatment tanks. The specific Gravity of the Reef style aquarium 1.026 is most used and popular. Especially since most of us keep Corals as well. Many corals respond best to higher 1026 salinity. Although some actually do "ok" in lower.
The old standard for saltwater fish was in a range of 1.021-1.023 in the saltwater hobby. A FOWLR (Fish Only with Live Rock) that is.
Some LFS even today keep their non coral tanks (holding live fish & fake ornaments) at the lower salinity. It's less stressful supposedly to the fish. (supposedly) Also an old trick store owners used to "help" keep possible parasites away. The lower the salinity sometimes the less stress on fish- It's easier to breathe (filter through the gills) in 1.022 water than it is 1.026 in part because the water is thinner in a way. Easier to process oxygen.
But once "used to" whatever salinity they are kept in, even 1.026 is not a problem for healthy fish. I would raise the salinity "slowly" over a few days to 1.026 as the system best level for fish and Corals.
Also, let's face it, other than their coral or display tanks(which must be managed to a stricter extent).. many LFS are not in the exact same practice we hobbyists are (or what they themselves may do in their personal home tanks) They "know" the same rules that we "know". But not everything is practiced in their "fish only tanks" exactly like it is in a personal hobby tank.
Whatever works easier and keeps fish alive in a store for sale with out using as much supplies (salt) It is done in some places.
This practice for most hobbyists today is not going on with exceptions of some quarantine/treatment tanks. The specific Gravity of the Reef style aquarium 1.026 is most used and popular. Especially since most of us keep Corals as well. Many corals respond best to higher 1026 salinity. Although some actually do "ok" in lower.
The old standard for saltwater fish was in a range of 1.021-1.023 in the saltwater hobby. A FOWLR (Fish Only with Live Rock) that is.
Some LFS even today keep their non coral tanks (holding live fish & fake ornaments) at the lower salinity. It's less stressful supposedly to the fish. (supposedly) Also an old trick store owners used to "help" keep possible parasites away. The lower the salinity sometimes the less stress on fish- It's easier to breathe (filter through the gills) in 1.022 water than it is 1.026 in part because the water is thinner in a way. Easier to process oxygen.
But once "used to" whatever salinity they are kept in, even 1.026 is not a problem for healthy fish. I would raise the salinity "slowly" over a few days to 1.026 as the system best level for fish and Corals.
Also, let's face it, other than their coral or display tanks(which must be managed to a stricter extent).. many LFS are not in the exact same practice we hobbyists are (or what they themselves may do in their personal home tanks) They "know" the same rules that we "know". But not everything is practiced in their "fish only tanks" exactly like it is in a personal hobby tank.
Whatever works easier and keeps fish alive in a store for sale with out using as much supplies (salt) It is done in some places.
Last edited:
DEEP BLUE SIX
New member
Here's what I'd do then:
For now, try a couple of those LARGER water changes we talked about.
Day 1: 25 - 30% change. Test afterward.
Day 2: Test again all parameters
Day 3: another 25 - 30% change - Test
Day 4: Test again all parameters
(make sure you check- PH, ALK, calcium, and Nitrates & Phosphates)
Try to slowly increase your Salinity over the several days/water changes too.
By mixing in a little higher salinity salt mix for the changes.
Also, at least while going through this period trying to decrease this Nitrate problem you have, change the carbon more often. Perhaps twice per month for stronger absorbtion. If I use any at all, I've have often done only monthly for changing the carbon. But since you have an increased Nitrate problem, changing it sooner may help and definitely will not hurt any.
Get a better skimmer when you can. Just by chance, my first system ever years ago came with the same one you have. It does Skim. But honestly, they are junk.
While your doing all this- continue research of Vodka / Vinegar Dosing. (Carbon Dosing)
See the Chart attached as a dosage guide for Vinegar (as you seem most interested in vinegar) BTW don't be afraid to add a bit more a day than what it says per each dosage period. It's fairly conservative(safe as long as you don't go total crazy stupid). It's ml by the way. milli-leters. You can get an easy to dose ml dispenser.
Just make sure you record and keep track of your dosage level each day and each increase day/weekly etc !
That's very important to track. Once you start seeing decreases in Nitrates, you know it's starting to work.
Your goal is 0 Nitrates eventually. Once you've attained it solid and stable for 1.5 - 2 weeks, you can calculate a maintenance dosage to go with daily to keep it down. It's often 1/2 that of or a little more or less than half the last dosage level you were at when 0 Nitrates was attained.
For now, try a couple of those LARGER water changes we talked about.
Day 1: 25 - 30% change. Test afterward.
Day 2: Test again all parameters
Day 3: another 25 - 30% change - Test
Day 4: Test again all parameters
(make sure you check- PH, ALK, calcium, and Nitrates & Phosphates)
Try to slowly increase your Salinity over the several days/water changes too.
By mixing in a little higher salinity salt mix for the changes.
Also, at least while going through this period trying to decrease this Nitrate problem you have, change the carbon more often. Perhaps twice per month for stronger absorbtion. If I use any at all, I've have often done only monthly for changing the carbon. But since you have an increased Nitrate problem, changing it sooner may help and definitely will not hurt any.
Get a better skimmer when you can. Just by chance, my first system ever years ago came with the same one you have. It does Skim. But honestly, they are junk.
While your doing all this- continue research of Vodka / Vinegar Dosing. (Carbon Dosing)
See the Chart attached as a dosage guide for Vinegar (as you seem most interested in vinegar) BTW don't be afraid to add a bit more a day than what it says per each dosage period. It's fairly conservative(safe as long as you don't go total crazy stupid). It's ml by the way. milli-leters. You can get an easy to dose ml dispenser.
Just make sure you record and keep track of your dosage level each day and each increase day/weekly etc !
That's very important to track. Once you start seeing decreases in Nitrates, you know it's starting to work.
Your goal is 0 Nitrates eventually. Once you've attained it solid and stable for 1.5 - 2 weeks, you can calculate a maintenance dosage to go with daily to keep it down. It's often 1/2 that of or a little more or less than half the last dosage level you were at when 0 Nitrates was attained.
Attachments
Last edited:
GMaquarium
New member
Carbon dosing a small tank with a weak protein skimmer may be risky. I would stick with frequent water changes a bit of carbon and Gfo in the filter.
Gary Majchrzak
Team RC
x2
IMO do water changes. Get a better skimmer. Run SG @ 1.026
Run small amounts of GFO anf GAC
DEEP BLUE SIX
New member
Good points.
I don't disagree either. As I stated it is a small water volume and the skimmer should be upgraded when possible. My initial suggestion First, is the exact same of all above. I would put a concentrated effort and refocus on water changes and consistant testing.
Then continue to research Carbon Dosing while your doing this. Since the OP was interested in "trying" it. I included the chart to review and consider. But I wouldn't start without upgrading the Skimmer first. CD definitely works. However, with a tank so small, I can't see why some regular water changes would not change the parameters to positive... quite quickly.
A few things:
For information on carbon dosing(vodka/ vinegar, etc) see this thread:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2134105
Water changes may help reduce nitrates. . I'd do five or six 15% changes over the course of a week.
If you used old sand ,I'd get rid of it.
1.023 sg is perilously low for invertebrates. The average for natural seawater is 1.0264. Invetebtrates( shrimp , mollusks, corals, anemones, etc.) can't osmoregulate like fish can ,so their internal sg is strongly effected by the water around them . Too low or too high throws their internal chemsitry off with lethal effect. Fish can do fine at lower sg above 1.008 but their internal organs are evolved to function in the sea where for most part the sg is 1.026. 1.023 for a reef tank is not a good recommendation ,imo.
Vodka or vinegar are about the same . The ethanol in vodka gets oxidized to acetic acid( vinegar) in water. The acetic acid turns to acetate as it hydrolizes . Bacterial diversity via a mix of carbon sources is unimportant and may be harmful if carbohydrates or sugars are used.
For information on carbon dosing(vodka/ vinegar, etc) see this thread:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2134105
Water changes may help reduce nitrates. . I'd do five or six 15% changes over the course of a week.
If you used old sand ,I'd get rid of it.
1.023 sg is perilously low for invertebrates. The average for natural seawater is 1.0264. Invetebtrates( shrimp , mollusks, corals, anemones, etc.) can't osmoregulate like fish can ,so their internal sg is strongly effected by the water around them . Too low or too high throws their internal chemsitry off with lethal effect. Fish can do fine at lower sg above 1.008 but their internal organs are evolved to function in the sea where for most part the sg is 1.026. 1.023 for a reef tank is not a good recommendation ,imo.
Vodka or vinegar are about the same . The ethanol in vodka gets oxidized to acetic acid( vinegar) in water. The acetic acid turns to acetate as it hydrolizes . Bacterial diversity via a mix of carbon sources is unimportant and may be harmful if carbohydrates or sugars are used.
Thank you, all. I'm thinking the water changes will do it over just a couple more weeks as I raise the salinity each time. I added additional carbon in the space available in the HOB filter. Honestly, everything in my tank looks fantastic, showing no signs of stress whatsoever. I am just concerned because my corals don't seem to be exhibiting the growth I believed they would experience. Thank you, again, everyone for your feedback.
